Saints Row Wiki
Table of Contents
  • The Update

    There was supposed to be a final warning 2 weeks before the update took place - there was not one.

    Wikia Staff created a "test" wiki in August, 2020, and I highlighted a variety of reasons why the UCP was not prepared for deployment to the Saints Row Wiki. At the time, they had threatened that it was going live within two weeks. Since that "2 weeks" warning went away and never returned, I assumed they were working on fixing the issues I identified.

    But as you can see, a variety of problems are now live here.

    The only reason it doesn't look worse is because I already began fixing a range of upcoming display problems in June, 2020.

    I have fixed the vast majority of the things that I can fix, and have annotated the list of issues with what I have fixed, and what is impossible for me to fix.

    Transcluded news posts are supposed to be cut off at 600 characters, so this paragraph shouldn't be visible.
    This has been broken for 18 months now.

    They have picked the worst time to deploy this without warning, and I will not be able to mitigate their problems until at least the weekend. I expect they will send their goon squad leading part of an advancing military formation in to try to fix the problems their way before I have a chance to do it myself.

    As someone who cares about the quality of my work, I am absolutely disgusted by Wikia's lack of interest in the quality of their own work.

    It looks like they have fixed a couple of things, however, here is a list of things which a multimillion dollar corporation with hundreds of employees and billions of pageviews thinks is acceptable:

    (In no particular order, but numbered because there are so many of them)

    1. All script using edittokens are broken.
    2. All videos are broken
    3. Popup references are broken
    4. Special:TagsReport is much less useful. It used to show a list of each different type of tag, then you click the tags you wanted to see. Now, it's a massive table, without any sorting or way to sort them, and without a clear overview of what tags even exist.
      • No change in Mediawiki 1.37.2
    5. After following a link to a section, the floating header bar covers the heading of that section.
      • No change in Mediawiki 1.37.2
      • I have fixed this on the Saints Row Wiki with CSS, but it's still a fucking problem that needs to be fixed.
    6. After following a redirect to a section, the floating header bar covers the heading of that section.
      • No change in Mediawiki 1.37.2
      • I can't fix this with CSS, because :target isn't available with the stupid way that Wikia now handles redirects.
    7. Previews do not show redlinks in red.
      • This makes previews a lot less useful, and shows that Wikia Staff don't understand what people use them for.
      • This is fixed at some stage prior to 2022-05-10
    8. Saints Row Wiki:Sandbox/http://deckers.die. All [[Http://deckers.die]] links are rendered as [[1]]. INCLUDING automatically generated DPL lists:
    9. Uneven italics tags in headings now escape the TOC and make the entire article italic.
      • I would have noticed the entire article was in italics previously. and results show that this was not the case before the update.
      • No change in Mediawiki 1.37.2
    10. The search page now encourages people to create a page named after their search terms.
      • I have used CSS to hide this, as There's no reason to do this, and it will only encourage vandalism.
      • No change in Mediawiki 1.37.2
    11. Advanced Special:Search options are broken.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • The default search for "infobox bullets" shows 90 pages, with the first results being category pages.
      • After clicking "Select All" only 1 page is shown. (2 now, including this page.)
      • They've changed something, because these results are no longer the same.
      • This is fixed at some stage prior to 2022-05-10
    12. Redirects in Categories are not italicised.
      • No change in Mediawiki 1.37.2
      • I have fixed myself with CSS, because it's too fucking annoying to leave unfixed.
    13. Links to for old revisions of pages which are now redirects, are redirected to the new page instead of displaying the old revision of the page.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • This is fixed at some stage prior to 2022-05-10, surprisingly, since this was such an edge case.
    14. On multiple occasions since the update, the Wiki-navigation link to Saints Row Wiki:Templates has randomly changed from "Templates" to "Templates on FANDOM".
    15. Special:ListRedirects is capped at 1000. It used to be capped at 5000.
    16. User pages are now inaccessible: user:452. You can see your own, but everyone else sees "This user has not filled out their profile page yet."
      • This was not broken yesterday. It's a brand new thing they've added to the pile of broken features.
      • They've also hidden the edit dropdown - which is hilarious, because if it was there, purging the page would temporarily show the content of the page.
      • I've side-stepped this myself by modifying the purge script to automatically reload user pages. Because who knows how many months it will be before Wikia Staff get around to fixing it themselves.
      • For 5 days now, the Saints Row Wiki is the ONLY wiki that displays other people's user pages.
      • This was eventually fixed.
    17. The API documentation used to be a single page, so it was easy to search for a term and find all occurrences to learn how the API worked. It is now split into individual pages, so in order to learn, you already have to know what you're looking for, which is discriminatory towards new users, and slows down established users.
      • No change in Mediawiki 1.37.2
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    18. Previews are not wrapped with .WikiaArticle, so are not accurate as some CSS is not applied.
      • When I first started editing this wiki, previews were flawless, and 100% matched the published page. Over the years, Wikia has introduced more and more inconsistencies, and it's really obvious at this point that they couldn't give a fuck about things like accuracy and presentation.
      • I could fix this by rewriting dozens, perhaps hundreds, of CSS rules to account for this, but this wouldn't make them accurate due to other issues.
    19. When you go to Special:Contributions/SomeUsernameThatDoesn'tReallyExist, the Contributions link is for your own IP address.
      • As this is the default behaviour, there is no reason for me to fix this.
    1. DPL "ignorecase=true" does not work correctly
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Still broken, it seems like it just uses lowercase instead of ignoring the case
    2. DPL queries containing "|addeditdate=true |ordermethod=created" display all revisions instead of just one revision.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    3. DPL queries displaying usernames don't work - this effects all previous forum posts.
    4. DPL queries for looking up usernames don't work - my userpage says I've only made 3 forum posts.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    5. Usernames are missing in page exports, for all edits before the update occurred.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Edits are attributed by ID, but the lack of username makes it much more difficult to read the XML files, especially if you're looking for an edit from a particular user.
      • The fact that usernames are present for edits since the update indicates that this was not intentional. And hints that this is the same cause of the DPL username issues.
      • Deleting and restoring fixes all of the username issues. Should I just delete and restore every single page on the wiki?
      • This issue has been fixed, apparently by a bandaid fix instead of actually populating the actor database, as the other 2 issues caused by this have not been fixed.
    6. Special:DeletedContributions doesn't list anything deleted before the UCP update.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • The revisions still exist in the database, and can be seen by viewing the deleted page history itself, and undeleting then redeleting adds it to Special:DeletedContributions. This appears to be exactly the same cause as the other 3 username issues.
    7. deleted revisions of old Blogs are not available to view or restore
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    8. Special:JSPages gives a 500 error.
      • Although I did not cause this, I resolved this myself.
    9. Special:Newwikis no longer exists.
      • This was eventually restored.
    10. WAM is gone.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Yet another feature that Wikia Staff never finished, and just abandoned. WTF actually goes on in their minds? Constantly half-arsing new features, making promises about improvements which never happen, then removing them citing lack of use.
    11. The new version of tabview apparently doesn't keep track of which tab is which, resulting in content being loaded into the wrong tab when switching tabs while the tab is still loading.
      • No change in Mediawiki 1.37.2
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • I've been using Saints Row Wiki:UnusedFiles for years by quickly switching between tabs to load them all, and have never seen this happen before now.
      • Still broken
    12. Someone - who will likely never face consequences for their actions - thought it would be a good idea to try to generate thumbnails for OGG files, OGV files, and PDF files on category pages
      • -> the_result <- obviously, because why would you think that an image thumbnailer could make a thumbnail for a sound file?
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    13. There is no longer a wikifeatures log, so it is impossible to see when features are enabled or disabled.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    14. Category Trees STILL counts ghost pages: Category:Template has invalid parameters
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Wikia Staff claimed over a year ago that the platform update would resolve these.
      • FINALLY FIXED as of 16:21, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
    15. DPL queries with errors just silently ignore the errors instead of displaying an error message like they used to.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • This makes it very hard to debug problems. Is the DPL query not showing anything because there are no matches, or is it showing no results because there's some unknown error that I need to be a fucking psychic to figure out.
      • Note: I've found one case in which a single error is shown, but a variety of error messages which used to be shown are missing.
    16. DPL queries with blurbs don't work correctly
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Example: The main page news listing has the entire text of every news post, including comments.
    17. Table formatting has changed. Previously, you could put "|width=10em|field contents" to set the width of a field. Now, this does nothing.
      • This definitely results in countless tables across countless wikis having their table formatting ruined. Thanks a lot, Wikia Staff!
    18. Special:Contact doesn't exist, and just redirects to zendesk. For years, Wikia Staff have seemed like they resent people filing bug reports, apparently they've now decided to make it more difficult for people to do so.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Making people jump through hoops so there are fewer bug reports is peak 2020. Absolutely fucking disgusting.
    19. Opensearch is now useless. Wikia Search has always been terrible, so someone created a script called "Search Suggestions" which added a list of title-based suggestions to the top of search pages. I also modified it to add a list of title-based suggestions to 404 pages. Both of these are now useless, and the 404 pages were filled with irrelevant results.
      • I've disabled both for now. I may be able to create a replacement script, but I have not looked into it yet.
    20. For the past 5 years, Wikia has used MediaWiki:Custom404page-noarticletext-alternative-found instead of MediaWiki:Noarticletext. But UCP doesn't use the new one. Any Wiki who customized the custom one instead of the old one is suddenly using the old one.
      • Luckily, when Wikia Staff launched Custom404page, it was locked. I had originally told them I refused to use the new one, and told them to disable it, and ultimately just had them redirect it to the old one which I could still edit. It was pure coincidence that I noticed this change.
    21. hidelogs=1 on RecentChanges does nothing.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    22. RecentChanges no longer links to IP talk pages.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • This was changed LATER, around 2020-01-13.
    23. RecentChanges does not always contain the most recent edits, with some edits taking 4 minutes to be shown.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • I noticed this due to my AjaxRC script, but even manually refreshing the page doesn't show some edits for several minutes.
      • RecentChanges still has lag as of 21:28, 18 January 2022 (UTC).
    24. RecentChanges sometimes misses edits completely.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • 21:17, 13 December 2021 (UTC) Still fucking happening.
    25. The Recent Wiki Activity sidebar also sometimes misses edits completely, for no discernable reason.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    26. When you upload a file which already exists, the error page displays the pre-existing image as a thumbnail gallery, and asks you if you want to add an image to that gallery. (And when you click the button, it shows a blank popup that cannot be closed.)
      • ...WHY? Who could possibly think that that is reasonable behaviour?
    27. The File Upload error page used to have two possible classes: ".warning", and ".error". ".warning" was changed to ".mw-destfile-warning". but ".error" is still ".error"
      • Why the fuck change one but not the other? Did the programmer fall asleep half way through updating class names?
    28. Newlines are not converted to linebreaks within Tabbers.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Yet another instance of Wikia Staff not giving a shit about wikitext.
      • This was eventually fixed, after staying broken for many months.
    29. Editor preferences on UCP and non-UCP wikis are not correctly matched.
      • This is just utterly careless.
    30. Section Edit links are displayed even when section editing is disabled in user preferences.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Once again, Wikia Staff do not care about user preferences.
    31. The "Template Classification Dialog" popup on all Non-UCP wikis is now broken. So no-one can create templates on wikis which have not been updated to UCP.
      • So, not only is the UCP breaking things on wikis that were fine when they are "upgraded" to UCP - UCP is also breaking things on wikis that haven't even been downgraded to UCP yet!
      • Yet another thing that they broke for no reason but will be too lazy to bother fixing, because if they wait long enough the problem will just go away.
    32. Categories are not shown in previews in any namespace
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • This makes it difficult to troubleshoot category problems.
      • Progress: as of 16:51, 2 December 2021 (UTC), categories are shown when you preview... at the very bottom of the page, BELOW the editor, past where anyone has a reasonable reason to scroll.
    33. And, they're using the ancient, monobook style, "catlinks" class - I had kept those selectors, but finally removed them from the CSS when updating it for the new design, since monobook is long gone. I guess it's nice to be vindicated for keeping them for so long - I will never remove another "outdated" selector again.
    34. Categories are not shown at the bottom of pages outside of the main or category namespaces.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • This means which hidden maintenance categories are not displayed at all, which makes it difficult to troubleshoot problems.
      • Wikia Staff again showing that they don't give a shit about editors.
      • Categories in other namespaces are back as of 07:36, 26 March 2021 (UTC) but look completely different because Wikia Staff used completely different classes for no reason.
    35. Categories outside of the main namespaces do not use the same class structure.
      • I have fixed the category styles myself.
    36. Duplicate articles are displayed in the Recent Activity sidebar.
      • In theory, I could use javascript to remove duplicate articles in the Recent Activity sidebar, but why should I have to?
      • Fixed before 16 March 2021
    37. Bot edits are displayed in the Recent Activity sidebar.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Fixed before 16 March 2021
    38. Rollbacks are displayed in the Recent Activity sidebar.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    39. Bot rollbacks are displayed in the Recent Activity sidebar.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Fixed before 16 March 2021
    40. Editing an existing redirect causes it to be displayed in the Recent Activity sidebar.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Fixed as of 21:41, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
    41. Creating a new redirect causes it to be displayed in the Recent Activity sidebar.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Fixed as of 21:41, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
    42. Deleting a page causes it to be displayed in the Recent Activity sidebar as an edit
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix..
      • This is particularly fucking annoying because it means that vandalism just fucking STAYS THERE.
    43. Deleting a redirect causes it to be displayed in the Recent Activity sidebar as an edit.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • How does this even happen? Why should a deletion trigger something to be logged as an edit?
      • At this point I'm surprised that Purges and Null Edits aren't also shown.
      • Fixed as of 21:41, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
    44. Category:Template errors - 55 pages didn't have errors before the update.
    45. The page resizing breakpoints have an error which doesn't appear at 100% zoom, but appears at all other zoom levels. Resizing any page with a rail to exactly 1024px results in the rail being shown with an incredibly squished article. Tested with 80%, 90%, 110%, 125%, 150% in both Chrome and Firefox. This can easily be fixed with minor changes to CSS - but the point is that testing CSS in different browser zoom levels is such a basic thing to do that this demonstrates that they don't do ANY form of testing at all.
    46. Audio files are broken in in collapsible tables, popout tables, and reference popups.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix - because the new audio player is a piece of shit which hides the filename and cannot be reinitialised.
      • If you disable javascript, the old Audio player is shown, and works fine. So why is there a new one at all if the old one is still present and functional?
    47. Same-wiki external links automatically open a new tab. This means all links in all navboxes open new tabs.
    48. Photosblacklist doesn't work. At all.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    49. Titleblacklist doesn't work. At all. Special:Version says it's enabled, but it just doesn't work.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • When I first reported this to Wikia Staff, they said "Please includt the URL to the MediaWiki:Titleblacklist." Just when I thought they couldn't get any more incompetent.
      • They have finally fixed this, sometime between 2021-01-24 and 2021-02-13
      • It is only partially fixed, several filters which used to work no longer do...
      • and:
    50. Titlewhitelist does not work.
    51. importArticles can not be used in the user namespace to load other javascript in the User namespace
    52. importArticles does not work in test mode.
      • 10 months later, still broken.
    53. importArticles later completely broke, and didn't even work at all.
      • This single issue has since been fixed.
    54. File names are not displayed on Special:UnusedFiles
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • Works fine on wikipedia, so it's clearly not a mediawiki problem - why is it broken here?
    55. Page usage is not displayed on Special:NewFiles
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
    56. Videos are broken on Special:NewFiles.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • It looks like the only thing that wasn't updated was Wikia's lightbox, which is as still as broken as ever.
    57. The image lightbox doesn't open when clicking a slideshow gallery on desktop. Clicking a slideshow does absolutely nothing.
      • After waiting 3 months for this to be fixed, I have side-stepped the issue.
    58. The image lightbox doesn't open when clicking a thumbnail gallery on mobile. Clicking an image results in an error.
      • After waiting 3 months for this to be fixed, I have fixed this myself.
    59. Global user javascript isn't loaded.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • It took them just under 6 fucking months to fix this.
    60. Global user stylesheet isn't loaded.
      • There is nothing I can do to fix this. This is something only Wikia Staff can fix.
      • It took them just under 6 fucking months to fix this.
      • Except, as usual, they've fucked it up. The global CSS file isn't being loaded, the contents of the global.css page are being inserted into the page within an unlabelled style tag.
    61. The url parameters usesitecss, useusercss, usesitejs, allowsitejs, useuserjs, allowuserjs don't work, making debugging this update more difficult than it has to be.
      • Fixed sometime recently, as the help page still states it is broken
      • Nope, not quite fixed. useusercss and useuserjs work, the others don't.
    62. OGV thumbnails are broken. These have always been broken, but it was previously possible to sidestep the issue by hiding the broken image. Now, the controls do not display until you hover over the video, so hiding the broken images hides the entire video.
    63. OGG and OGV files are unreasonably slow to load compared with before the update.
    64. {{#ip:}} no longer works.
    65. There is no Special:WikiActivity, despite Wikia Staff forcing it down our throats for years.
    66. There is no Special:Pageswithoutinfobox - rolled my own: Saints Row Wiki:Sandbox/without infoboxes
    67. There is no Special:ActiveUsers
    68. There is no Special:MultipleUpload
    69. There is no Special:Editcount
      • Special:Editcount has now re-appeared. Unsure when this happened, as Wikia Staff fired the person who posted Technical Updates and apparently didn't notice they didn't assign that task to anyone else until last week. 20:33, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
    70. There is no Special:UnusedVideos
    71. There is no Special:Disambiguations
    72. There is no Special:Following
    73. There is no Special:Mostpopularcategories
    74. There is no Special:MostLinkedFilesInContent
    75. Special:ListUsers says all groups are 0
      • This was eventually fixed.
    76. Special:ListUsers does not allow admins/rollback/bots/etc to be selected.
    77. Group links to Special:ListUsers do nothing, even for groups which are listed.
    78. Special:ListUsers links to "Wall", despite the fact that User_Talk pages are used here.
    79. Special:ListUsers cannot be sorted alphabetically.
    80. Special:ListUsers navigation does not respect sort order.
    81. The class "article-with-rail" is added to all pages, even when it doesn't have a rail.
    82. The right rail is shown on edit pages in some namespaces, such as User:
    83. There is a certain situation in which the full size (massive) images are being loaded and displayed smaller, instead of loading the appropriately sized image.
      • I'm not going to report the details about this one, because I want to see how long it will take Wikia Staff to notice this on their own.
      • Of course they've fixed THIS bug before more important things that I actually reported.
      • Details: Category pages used full size images instead of thumbnails.
      • NOW, Category pages are using CROPPED images instead of resizing it to fit. This looks particularly terrible on categories like Category:Weapons in Saints Row 2 and Category:Vehicles in Saints Row 2 which cut off the images.
    84. Namespace checks are broken, {{ns:1200}} previously returned "Message Wall", but instead returns "Message Wall".
      • Apparently this was fixed, sometime before 16 March 2021
    85. Most wikis are littered with dead links and inaccessible pages of the form "Special:Badtitle/NS1201" - namespaces vary. These cannot be deleted through normal means. All newly created wikis get an inaccessible page "Special:Badtitle/NS502:Recent posts" created by User:FANDOM.
      • Luckily, the Saints Row Wiki isn't effected by this, as I already manually deleted all pages in those namespaces. However, this does not excuse this absolutely amateurish oversight from Wikia Staff.
    86. Category:Broken references - 220 pages weren't broken before the update: Saints_Row_Wiki:Sandbox/UCP_Broke_References
      • I have resolved this.
    87. References was forced into 2 columns for no reason.
      • I have sidestepped this issue with CSS.
    88. Slideshow galleries do not work at all.
      • This was partially fixed, and I side-stepped the remaining issues.
    89. There's no fucking Help:Welcome tool any more.
      • When I reported this to Wikia Staff, they told me "this feature is not currently available on new wikis". Last time I checked, this wiki was created 13 fucking years ago. Once I pointed that out, they told me "The message wall works on another software for new platform." - Last time I checked, this wiki doesn't fucking use Message Wall. (The icing on the cake was that Wikia Staff acted like *I* was the one in that conversation who didn't know what I was talking about, linking me to the Help page despite me leaving comments on the talk page 9 years ago.)
      • I've created my own replacement welcome tool in less than an hour.
    90. Message Wall Greetings are no longer shown.
    91. Links to Message Wall on wikis without it enabled used to display the user header and links, now it shows a 404 page in the main namespace without a link to the user page.
      • Yet another way that the New and Improved Tacked On Message Wall has even worse integration.
    92. Tranferred Discussions and Message Wall messages cannot be edited.
    93. New messages can be edited, but diffs and history are not visible. Entirely contrary to the spirit of a wiki.
    94. Transferred Discussions and Message Wall messages contain direct links to images. If those images are renamed, there is no notification of broken images on Special:WantedFiles or Category:Pages_with_broken_file_links - AND there is no way to edit those posts to update the image url.
    95. The new Message Wall does not have the function to close threads to prevent future replies while leaving them visible.
    96. The new Message Wall does not have the function to sort threads by last reply.
    97. The new Message Wall displays deleted threads with no apparent way to opt-out of seeing them.
    98. The new Message Wall has duplicated every old thread on my Community Central Message Wall.
    99. The new Message Wall doesn't link to the "user_talk_archive".
    100. The new Message Wall redirects links to "user_talk:user?action=history"
    101. The new Message Wall redirects links to user_talk diffs.
      • I knew that the new Message Wall betrays the spirit of wikis, but I didn't realise it also actively preventing access to the history of a wiki.
    102. The new Blog comments redirect links to diffs
    103. The new Blog comments redirect links to action=history
    104. Thread and ?curid= links to specific "New Forum" comments do not correctly link to transferred Discussion comments
    105. Variant section on Anchor was messed up because the text ";Channel 5 News:Defined in all games." was turning "News:Defined" into a link.
      • It was not a problem before the update, and I did not notice this until 2021-09-24.
      • Wikia fixed this on 18:18, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

    These are just the issues that I've noticed, generally because they effect this wiki. Who knows how many other problems there are that I just haven't encountered. Edit: over 100.

    In addition, these are the problems which still existed in August when they first announced the Saints Row Wiki would be "upgraded":

    • There was no user javascript
    • mw.util was not available, so most site javascript was broken
    • There was no easy access to source editor. The only way to get to the source editor was to manually add "?action=submit" to the URL.
    • DPL was completely broken, because the dplcache parameter was throwing an error, so every single page on the wiki was broken.
    • tabview was not enabled
    • No OGG audio or OGV video support
    • The "Disable Category module" option was hiding categories entirely when enabled.

    Wikia Staff have informed me that they're aware that UCP is full of bugs and will be doing bug fixes in the next few weeks.

    • Update: It has been over a month, and the list of problems I've found is much larger, while Wikia Staff have only fixed 1 issue in that time.
    • Update: It has been over a 3 months, and the list of problems I've found is much larger, while Wikia Staff have only fixed 3 issues in that time.

    I have reported several of the most glaring issues which should have never made it past beta-testing, and I'm aware of many other issues, but as the current state of things is 100% their fault, and not mine, I will not be performing any more mitigation until they have declared at the UCP is in a finished state.

    • To be clear: I have upgraded the site CSS and JS in line with the intended changes, and have implemented some javascript bandaids to fix several easy things. There are a variety of things I could do to mitigate some of the other problems, but I shouldn't fucking have to, because this unfinished upgrade should never have been released.

    If you see any other issues, please point them out in the comments below!

    452 (between 11:15, 28 October 2020 (UTC) and 18:13, 20 November 2020 (UTC))

    It has now been over a year, and there are many problems they have not addressed or resolved. ~ 452 (talk) 19:22, 13 November 2021 (UTC)


    I still can't even fucking edit pages without putting "?action=submit" in the URL manually. 452 11:15, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

    You know, a few months back, I distinctly remember thinking, "Godspeed, 452" with respect to Saints Row WIki's inevitable migration to UCP. At multiple points throughout the UCP updates/migrations timeline, I would think upon all the issues I imagined UCP migration would cause more 'complex' wikis like Saints Row; so, I frequently checked to see whether SR Wiki had yet received the migration announcement banner-and once it had, well, it was only a matter of time.

    I was not aware of the Saints Row-UCP test wiki and that concomitant migration preparations were underway as early back as August, so at first I was taken aback to read your opening line, "There was supposed to be a final warning..." --because I was thinking about ordinary migration/announcement banner circumstances; I know when the announcement banner first appeared on one wiki I admin (Baccano! Wiki) back in August, I thought I would have at least two weeks to prepare based on some blog post or another I had read on Community Central. B! Wiki was migrated in less than two weeks following the banner's appearance.

    I was already planning to wish you good luck with the migration, but, having now seen and read this UCP Update, I can only commiserate and wish you best of luck more fervently. There is a user-compiled list of known UCP bugs at Noreplyz/UCP that you may have already seen, or, if not, have an interest in checking. I don't believe the list is exhaustive, for there is at least one side-effect of migrations I can think of that I don't think is included; I added a bug myself that I submitted a ticket for in September and am still waiting to be fixed (.ogg file player embedded in collapsed content does not work/render). I can only imagine what myriad bugs you and general users have already found and may regrettably still have yet to discover.

    Ah, right, I'll try not to digress into a vent about certain general UCP gripes when this forum thread should stick to the Saints Row Wiki migration. I certainly do hope the next Technical Updates are bug-oriented, considering that a wide number of wikis have been newly batch-migrated (and with consideration to all the wikis that have been issue-laden for some time already).

    Before I sign off, which editor are you using as your primary/default editor? I switched to the 2010 editor as soon as it was available due to how unbearably slow the UCP editing experience was, and I'm wondering whether ?action=submit is unfortunately necessary regardless of editor, or... Well, you may have already tested that, and I'm sure I could test it myself.

    In sum: regarding the UCP migration, my sympathy for you and the wiki is acute. Revriley (talk) 06:38, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

    It sounds like we first got the announcement banner at the same time in August.
    I had already created my own test wiki back in March so I could align the CSS with the new selectors well ahead of time. They created the "official" cloned test wiki on 2020-07-20, but didn't bother telling me about it until 3 weeks later - there wasn't really anything for me to "do" at that point other than point out a range of flaws. It was soon after that that they "paused migrations" and the banner disappeared from here. But once they resumed migrations, the banner never re-appeared.
    (.ogg file player embedded in collapsed content does not work/render).
    Thanks, I noticed that, but had thought the cause was just that it was unclickable - unfortunately I only randomly saw it while fixing the randomiser templates on the main page, so that's just going to have to be something fun for me to track down later. edit: found! yeah, just a blank rectangle. Hopefully they fix that soon.
    I'm using the 2010 editor (without ?action=submit thankfully) - and will be encourage others to do the same.
    Due to all the problems it caused, the old "new Visual Editor" was soft-disabled here, so using the "use site default" (or whatever) option would default to the source/visual tabbed mode, and you could only use "new Visual Editor" if you specifically selected it.
    I also can only imagine the bugs that the new "new Visual Editor" is going to cause due to being the default.
    They fucked up the implementation of editor preferences, so if you select "source" on a non-UCP wiki, your UCP wiki preference is STILL set to "visual editor - source mode".
    Preferred editor comparison.png
    I had thought that the problem was simply that option 3 was mapped to option 3 - a rookie mistake, but I just tested the other options and they've successfully mapped both option 1 and 2 to option 1. I think this shows that this is deliberate, so saying "The bug fix for editor preferences being mismatched between Legacy and UCP is currently undergoing QA.", and later claiming it was fixed is yet another lie from Wikia Staff.
    Fortunately, most of the issues with UCP aren't difficult for me to overcome, the worst part for me is the timing. That and having to wait up to several days for javascript edits to be approved. And my global JS still not being loaded.
    452 14:12, 3 November 2020 (UTC) (updated 17:39, 3 November 2020 (UTC))
    I just tried to fix the "ogg in collapsible" problem, and I can't, because the filename isn't even in the HTML. 452 17:52, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
    Typo fix for first reply: I typed a semi-colon instead of a colon within the Noreplyz/UCP link. Fixed; link now actually links to the list of issues.
    Ha, did you see the global "fatal exception" issue that crashed all UCP and UCP-migrated wikis earlier this morning, as caused by a new UCP update? Refreshed this wiki intending to reply to your reply; got the invalidargumentexception token. Same on Baccano! Wiki. They've reverted the update for the time being and are now trying to figure out what went wrong. I can already think of one thing to fix: improve beta testing + development before rolling out updates! Talk about imbroglios...
    Editor preferences
    Oh yes, it didn't take long for people to notice this issue after the 2010 editor first went live; it was brought to my attention the day of release, I think, when I was discussing the release in question. I remember them saying they were looking into this issue; I guess I'm not surprised it hasn't actually been thoroughly resolved yet. I mean, they thought they resolved the issue with .ogg files not playing back in September (and, to be fair, they mostly did), but evidently they must not have tested whether .ogg files embedded in collapsed content will be playable after the content is expanded (because, of course, I experienced the bug on B! Wiki here, ticket #973822 submitted Sep 13)--so the state of their beta testing for bug fixes must not be as adroit as one would like. Not to mention the inaccurate image displays for article thumbnails; again, somewhat fixed, but still not properly resolved. Alas.
    Glad that the 2010 editor is working out for you. I'd definitely recommend it to others (and have) based solely on the fact it provides a faster editing experience than the UCP editor (regardless of whether one uses Visual or Source); the delay while editing (waiting upwards of a minute or so for inputted text to show on screen, etc) was incredibly frustrating, certainly detrimental to workflow. Of course, if the UCP editors are requiring action...submit on Saints Row Wiki, then that's all the more vital reason to direct users to the 2010 editor for the time being.
    I'm not actually sure I noticed any banner on Saints Row Wiki prior to September, when I did see the migration banner show up here. Checking my messages on the Dev Wiki Discord server, I see I wrote 'Godspeed, 452' on September 17 with reference to the banner, again presuming the migration would be a nightmare. Of course, I simply might not have visited the wiki in August at the time you say the banner appeared...
    But I suppose that's moot now. What's not moot is the gamut of bugs, that's quite clear. Revriley (talk) 18:19, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
    Oh, speaking of things the migration has changed on Saints Row Wiki, your "You must create an account to access File pages" PSA for lightboxes no longer displays; this is due to certain class selectors being removed for UCP. I know this because I decided to follow in your footsteps in the wake of this Technical Update on anons and File Pages (notice how long the discussion continued after you unfollowed that thread; my own comments are buried somewhere in there)--but I decided to do so after the UCP migration, and had to investigate with the Inspect/Chromium Dev Tools to figure out what the issue was (and confirmed my suspicion was correct later).
    You're using .user-anon .LightboxModal .LightboxHeader:after currently on Common.css. You need to remove .user-anon for the code to work again; this is because UCP no longer has the user-specific classes like .user-anon and .user-logged. Doesn't seem like there are any updated/replacement versions of user-specific classes; if there are, nobody has figured out what they might be, since the UCP github repository is inaccessible and FANDOM has yet to formally list all the new (changed/replaced) class selectors, or the ones that have been removed altogether for UCP. Of course, this (removing the obsolete .user-anon class) means the file pages PSA will be visible to anons and logged-in users if you choose to keep it, but it's either that or retiring the PSA completely.
    (Okay, now I'm generally venting). The class selector changes/removals are definitely one of my bigger UCP gripes, in no small part due to the fact Staff never really formally informed users of the changes. A change in a certain class selector immediately 'broke' B! Wiki's article background image upon migration, for instance. When trying to fix it, I was kindly informed by our former Wiki Manager I needed to actually switch to another class selector because the one I used was no longer acceptable according to FANDOM's updated Customization Policy (which I had not realized had been updated). Then I had to dig around with Dev Tools for the updated class selectors for User Profiles. Essentially, us users are figuring out what class selectors have changed or been removed by stumbling across them as we go, it seems. Revriley (talk) 18:53, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
    Yeah, I was fixing something at the time and it occurred between me submitting an edit and the page loading - for a second I though I'd caused it.
    I just wasted too much time trying to dig into the ogg issue. I'd like to just disable the new player altogether, since the old player is still perfectly functional underneath it. As it is, I need to maintain the CSS for both for now, which sucks - and having 2 different players is going to be confusing for people.
    the UCP github repository is inaccessible
    Wow, yet another reason to dislike it.
    That would explain why I got nowhere trying to figure out the new media player. I guess I'll stop searching github and just read the javascript directly.
    Thanks for the heads-up about that message, I plan to - eventually - go through all my CSS to see if there's anything missing.
    As a workaround, I'll just check javascript for wgUserId and add my own class.
    I won't be revisiting that thread. Was there ever anything useful, or just more of the same from the usual people?
    452 20:14, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
    I just had the displeasure of trying to use Message Wall on a migrated wiki.
    It's unfathomable that they could make Message Wall WORSE than it was. You can no longer get to a thread from Special:Contributions, you can't get a thread ID from the page ID, diff links don't work - but ?diff=curr" does.
    And apparently some wikis have a completely bizarre Special:RecentChanges and Special:Contributions now?
    452 13:36, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
    Interesting that I said ?diff=curr works - because it doesn't now. ~ 452 (talk) 22:15, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
    I had completely forgotten that the mediawiki update is just UCP "Phase 1".
    Phase 2 is likely to be even worse for highly customized wikis.
    452 14:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
    I've now gotten Template:Random/Audio working fine, as well as purging and null editing pages.
    Unfortunately, I cannot get audio working in collapsibles, popout tables, or reference popups.
    The reason for both is that it is possible to initialise uninitialised audio players using
     $('video, audio').embedPlayer(); 
    , but that doesn't work on players which have already been initialised.
    The reason that collapsed audio players don't work is because the initialisation script doesn't like the fact that it's not visible.
    A work-around would be to have all collapsibles visible by default, and have them collapsed after load with javascript. HOWEVER, the audio player is initialised very very later into page loading, after readyState == complete, so you'd have to do a check for audio in collapsibles, and add a listener to the audio player to see if it's initialised. I might try that myself next week.
    But there's basically no way to get audio working in popout tables or reference popups.
    452 16:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
    I normally keep swearing out of the main post, and save it for the comments. And I did, when I first posted this.
    But fuck this shit-show. Why the fuck should I bother to sound professional in a news post when Wikia are so unprofessional that they release a bug-filled mess?
    If it had been one or two unforeseeable edge-case bugs, but this list shows an utter lack of testing, and an utter lack of care. 452 18:13, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
    After waiting 2 entire months for Wikia Staff to lift a finger, I've created my own replacement welcome tool in less than an hour.
    It's not fucking difficult, yet these so-called "professionals" can't manage to do it. These only thing they know how to do is make excuses. This "Can't-Do" attitude is the root cause of everything wrong in the world, so congratulations Wikia Staff for perpetuating that.
    If I were so inclined, I would recycle my "chat welcome" script which left welcome messages on Message Walls when people joined the chat, but since hell will freeze over before Message Wall is enabled here again, there is no point in me doing so.
    452 16:56, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
    The terrible changes start coming and then don't stop coming apparently.
    RecentChanges has now been altered so that there are no links to IP talk pages. It wasn't like this 2 days ago.
    They haven't fixed a single fucking thing in over 2 months, but they've made another thing FUCKING WORSE?
    452 00:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
    We just passed 3 months, and I count 3 issues fixed.
    At this rate, the UCP will be finished in April... of 2026.
    Except that in those 3 months, there have also been at least 3 new issues introduced, so I may be being too optimist, as usual.
    452 19:22, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
    RecentChanges is still fucking up.
    This edit happened, it's in the history and in my contributions.
    But it's not on Special:RecentChanges, or in the Recent Activity sidebar.
    Earlier, RecentChanges was just lagging, now it's missing edits altogether.
    452 11:12, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
    To test it wasn't an issue with pages starting with ', I performed another edit to the page, and that showed up in both fine. But RecentChanges STILL says that there has only been 1 edit to that page, and doesn't show the earlier edit.
    I used the normal editor, and didn't do anything strange, and it's not listed as a bot edit.
    452 11:15, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
    And again with Template:Discuss.articlelist
    It has just occurred to me that this means vandalism could be occurring right now and I would have no way of knowing.
    452 13:37, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
    Embedding images so they're not "unused":
    Table formatting differences, before and after
    Table formatting differences.png
    Newlines are stripped in tabbers, before and after
    More UCP bullshit.jpg
    452 18:49, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
    4 months later, and very little fixed. ~ 452 (talk) 21:13, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
    134 days since I was told that "we're certainly going to be doing a lot more bug fixing in the coming weeks.", Wikia Staff have announced they will start fixing bugs. ~ 452 (talk) 19:05, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
    They're going to be listing everything they fixed, which will make it very easy for me to cross-check with my list.
    So far, they've fixed nothing I've outlined, but have introduced another CSS problem for me to resolve, as well as "fixing" "A bug causing the project namespace to miss the right rail" - which I thought was a intentional, welcome, change.
    ~ 452 (talk) 19:10, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
    They've finally gotten around to fixing the duplication in the Recent Wiki Activity sidebar module. It only took them 139 days to fix it since forcing the Saints Row Wiki to update, despite this issue being immediately visible to anyone who actually edits a wiki.
    I've also just noticed that they've unceremoniously deleted the UCP test wiki I created in March 2020, where issues such as that one were immediately apparent. They're so opposed to the very concept of testing that they delete test wikis titled "This is my test wiki" without warning.
    ~ 452 (talk) 20:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
    Redirects, however, are still shown in the Recent Wiki Activity sidebar. ~ 452 (talk) 20:44, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
    The problems I've listed here are just the tip of the iceberg, as this week they've finally fixed more than 100 other bugs. ~ 452 (talk) 19:30, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
    Apparently after spending a week and another week, fixing hundreds of bugs I had never even encountered, they've stopped fixing bugs, despite not even fixing half of the bugs I have found that they introduced last November. ~ 452 (talk) 19:46, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
    Global JS and CSS are FINALLY being loaded again. ~ 452 (talk) 12:50, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
    It doesn't seem like any further bugs have been fixed over the last month. ~ 452 (talk) 09:47, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
    They've finally fixed line breaks in tabbers. ~ 452 (talk) 17:14, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
    Ugh, I've just read through the list again, and checked a variety of other problems. Everything else is still fucking broken, EIGHT MONTHS LATER. ~ 452 (talk) 17:56, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
    Special:Editcount is back. ~ 452 (talk) 20:33, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
    Special:ActiveUsers also. ~ 452 (talk) 20:35, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
    ...but only redirects to Special:Listusers. ~ 452 (talk) 20:36, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

    Phase 2[]

    Regarding 452's 14:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC) comment, "I had completely forgotten that the mediawiki update is just UCP "Phase 1". Phase 2 is likely to be even worse for highly customized wikis": If it helps, so did I. When I first got the FandomDesktop advance opt-in notification (the one that generously allowed us local admins to frantically try to make their wikis remotely presentable in advance of the new skin's global rollout), I ending up sifting through UCP posts just to confirm the whole Phase concept. "Oh yeah, they did say that, didn't they..."

    Well, now that FandomDesktop's global rollout has more then are you liking them apples? 'Global rollout', psh. Why bother giving admins the ability to mark a wiki as "rollout-ready" in the Admin Dashboard, is what I want to know. The existence of such a button implicitly suggests / recognizes there will be some admins who do not believe the wiki is rollout-ready, and by 'believe' I mean "agree, because the admin knows full well how much work on the new skin customizations they have done and have yet to complete." Yet, heedless of this, FANDOM has rolled out the new skin for wikis that are implicitly not ready. I know because I definitely did not mark any of the wikis I admin as ready for the rollout. I suppose they meant "ready for advance rollout, but suck it up, buckaroo, the global spring/summer rollout will happen no matter how unready you are."

    I'm writing this as a top-level comment, rather than as a direct reply to your November 2020 comment, because I expect FandomDesktop / Phase 2 as a topic is so broad / major that it will benefit from a new, distinct comment thread. The new skin isn't just a matter of aesthetics, after all; it's caused a lot of 'breakages' on wikis and expects a new workload of admins with regard to making a wiki Light or Dark Mode-compatible. Sure, there are global defaults, but a lot of manual customization is needed from us if we want the wikis to, you know, actually look good. So many templates need mode-specific versions, so many. —Revriley (talk) 21:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

    Thanks for stopping by again.
    The thing is, I had begun working on updating the wiki for the new layout, and was planning to mark it as ready when it was ready... then the very next week they went ahead and enforced it here anyway, so my enthusiasm for not letting them make the wiki look like shit evaporated.
    I would have had the CSS sparkling before I pressed the rollout-ready button, but if they want the wiki to look like shit by forcing the update before I'm ready, that's on them.
    And I don't even need to make a new news post about it, since this one is still current, and they never fixed all the issues with it.
    I'm pretty sure that when there's a clogged toilet at FANDOM HQ, instead of calling a plumber, they just take another dump in it. Probably an upper-decker.
    ~ 452 (talk) 21:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
         "Thanks for stopping by again." | Of course! I did mean to reply to your reply, by the way, I just...well, let's just say time blindness and forgetfulness are perennial personal issues I am perennially attempting to improve. (That, and there's the godforsaken unfinished Master's Thesis that coils around my neck.) Saints Row Wiki is one of those wikis I like to check in on now and then more for how it's run/organized rather than its content; that is to say, I've dabbled when it comes to playing the games themselves—but only dabbled, so actively contributing to the wiki (beyond minor edits) has not been a factor in my visitation. (Embarrassing, I know, but my first experience with Saints Row was Saints Row IV, which I bought in 2014...but still have yet to finish!) I think—years back—I came across one of your comments in one of the Community Central forum threads or technical updates or staff posts, was impressed (then checked out Saints Row Wiki and was further impressed)—and thereafter began checking in from time to time. What can I say? There are a few local wiki admins whom I've come to admire and learn from, regardless of their wikis' subject, and you're one of them. Come to think of it, I stumbled across a...drama compilation post (?) involving you / this wiki on an unaffiliated site some months ago—imagine my shock when I recognized whom it involved. I considered informing you (but forgot to), and perhaps I should still, but that's for your Talk Page as opposed to this thread.
         Yes, I had started FandomDesktop prep work on the four wikis I admin as well. It was...frustrating, the day I checked the 'logged-out' version of the most popular wiki (Baccano! Wiki) to discover the default skin for anons had been changed to FandomDesktop regardless of the fact I was not ready. Certainly, I'd made headway on B! Wiki and the other three during the advance period, but there was and still remains work to be done. I am only one person, responsible for four wikis, and changes across four wikis takes time. Making mode-specific alterations is especially intensive; as I alluded to, templates in particular are likely to look good in one mode (i.e. whichever mode the pre-existing theme inherently adhered to more) versus another. IN other words, just because I'd made headway on the most major / critical issues raised by the new skin doesn't mean I had—nor have I still ubiquitously—tackled all the issues. Again, there remain templates to mode-tailor... I still haven't fixed the damn templates that are both specific and imperative to one article in particular, though with those ones it's more a matter of figuring out the tabs...but I ramble and digress per my usual nonsense. Forgive me.
         By the by, I believe you without hesitation when you say you would have made the CSS sparkling had FANDOM not steamrolled ahead; I notice with some amusement that Saints Row Wiki's MediaWiki:Fandomdesktop.css does not even exist yet, perhaps because it may not need to, since you're on top of things. I have been making an effort to appreciate some of the positives that have come from the new skin in the meantime. Pinned local top nav, natively accessible article TOC while scrolling, and a Dark Mode toggle (despite the labor Light / Dark Mode all but requires of local admins) are all good things. Of course, the downsides... Actually, hold that thought. I didn't give the mode toggle a go on Saints Row Wiki before, but now that I am, it seems there's no difference? Dark Mode is the same as Light Mode? This must be the result of a conscious action on your part. I'm curious: is this because you cannot or do not want to create a whole new 'mode' for the wiki (e.g. you reject acquiescing to the labor demands imposed by a mode you did not ask for), or is this a temporary measure stemming from principle (e.g. you refuse to stand for a half-baked, work-in-progress alternative mode and will only permit mode toggling once you've cobbled together an encompassing, fully realized/ubiquitously reaching cascading style sheet)? Given your personal standards and your remarks re: "If they want the Wiki to look like shit", (hah!) I'll guess the latter.
         Given SR Wiki's behind-the-scenes complexity, and given your article count is double that of B! Wiki's, I simultaneously, respectively understand and don't envy you... Ah, postscript: Good call on sectioning off Phase 2. Clearly delineating topics never hurts. —Revriley (talk) 04:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
    Awww, thanks. It's nice to be appreciated.
    Sorry for my lack of response, I wrote one then my browser crashed and I've just been too depressed by this shitshow to even look at the wiki recently. Even just looking at this now has given me a headache.
    No problem about not playing the games, with your first experience being SRIV, I don't blame you at all for not finishing it - speaking of shitshows, it's like they just left out a bunch of cutscenes.
    Are you referring to the /r/HobbyDrama post? Yeah, I found that while I was googling for updates on that situation. As far as I can tell, he finally gave up.
    No problem with the rambling, I do the same!
    Luckily, having previously made most of my templates skin and width agnostic for monobook compatibility served me well.
    I had no idea Fandomdesktop.css even existed, and won't be using it.
    I like your train of thought discovery of the SRW's lack of dark mode. I had a really good explanation for that in my first draft - I don't recall what it was at all! A little of column A, a little of column B. I saw there were problems with the default dark mode, so I fixed them in the simplest way.
    Hmm, the first time writing a response, I remember my response was so long I was going to split half of it into a talk page conversation, but I can't for the life of my remember what I possibly could have talked about. Weird. Probably an extended rant about how much fANDOM sucks.
    I notice that the Forum namespace is missing the sidebar - great. OH, and even better, logged out mode doesn't have the RecentChanges module at all. Ugh. It's like Wikia Staff don't even care about recruiting editors at all any more. It's so weird that they seem to HATE editors with such passion, do they not understand who creates their content???
    ~ 452 (talk) 20:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
    Just now, the color of the "fandom-community-header" text has defaulted to black across all wikis, despite the local theme setting it to white. ~ 452 (talk) 16:58, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
    It has been almost a month already, and it's still broken on all wikis, AND just now the header color disappeared, rendering the header completely unreadable. They've taken away the :before css which applied the colour, I've added it to the local CSS. ~ 452 (talk) 23:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
    An idea struck me about why this might have happened, and after literally 20 seconds of investigation, I've found the cause: Fandom Staff are amateurs. ~ 452 (talk) 23:08, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

    It has now been over a year, and there are many problems they have not addressed or resolved. ~ 452 (talk) 19:22, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

    Another update[]

    Wikia Staff have just told me via a support ticket: "we are starting to look at another MediaWiki upgrade,"

    Wow. Dozens upon dozens of things they never even fixed and now they're going to try another upgrade? Ugh. ~ 452 (talk) 18:58, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

    And now they're apparently trying to gaslight me. I asked for an update on includemaxlength being ignored in DPL queries - the same problem which is resulting in this very comment appearing on Saints Row Wiki instead of this post being cut off at 600 characters - and they asked me if it ever worked. Of course it worked. Why would I ask if it didn't? Why would I have a news section a mile long which displayed all the comments on the main page?!? ~ 452 (talk) 19:50, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

    The update has now happened, after the "this wiki will be updated in the next 2 weeks" message has been present for over 2 months.

    The good:

    • DPL problems concerning usernames are fixed.

    The bad:

    • includemaxlength still doesn't work.
    • javascript edittokens are all broken.
    • all videos are broken
    • popup references are broken
    • tabview still doesn't track which tab is which when loading each tab.

    I haven't extensively gone through the list yet, but will do so after I get a few obvious things fixed.

    452 (talk) 15:05, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

    Times like these really shows how this place is held together by duct tape and string. 452 (talk) 13:34, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

  • Reminder about Retcons and References

    Just a couple of reminders.


    All pre-release information requires references. Any pre-release information without references will be immediately removed.

    All differences in patches and remasters should be documented.

    After release, information still requires references. Any post-release information without references will be marked with {{ref?}}, this wiki's version of [citation needed].

    For more information: Forum:References and pre-release information


    See also: Forum:Ret-cons: Gat shot first

    This wiki deals with Patches, Retcons, and Remasters the same as always: including information about everything.

    If something happens in the unpatched game, this wiki documents what happens and that it was fixed in a patch. The patch doesn't change what happens in the unpatched game.

    If something happens in the game and is later Retconned in a later game, this wiki documents what happens and that the later game is wrong about what happened. The later game does not change what happened in the previous game.

    If something happens in the game and is different in a Remaster, this wiki documents what happens and that the Remaster is wrong about what happened.

    Theoretically, nothing but visuals should be changing in the SRTT Remaster. But if even a single line of dialogue is changed, that doesn't change what happened in SRTT in 2011.

    Unfortunately, it is likely that the SR2 PC patch will introduce changes which are not in line with the Xbox 360 version of the game. People will likely try to claim that the unpatched SR2 PC "doesn't count" because it is broken and the the "fixed" SR2 PC will therefore be official - while completely ignoring the fact that the unpatched SR2 PC release is identical to the Xbox 360 release other than performances issues.

    Other than some added features in Re-elected, I know of only 2 things have ever been found to be different between releases.

    As with all patches in the past, changes should be documented alongside the unpatched information.

    Regarding "canon"[]

    The word "canon" is meaningless here. Did you mean Canonized, or Genki Cannon?

    I anticipate that the SRTT remaster will cause people to claim "This is what X looks like in SRTT remaster, therefore it is caaaaanon".

    That is not how it works.

    If we let later releases dictate what is "canon", then Saints Row (mobile) and Saints Row 2 (mobile) would be the "canon" versions of those games.

    Either it happened in a Saints Row game, or it didn't. Discussing "caaanon" is irrelevant.

    Coincidentally, Volition obviously doesn't give a fuck about canon either: see Timeline for proof of that.

    Over the years, I've noticed that the type of people who try to argue about something on the basis of "caaaanon" are generally the type of people who end up being blocked on the wiki months later. So I generally regard it as a word used by troublemakers, alongside several other red flags they coincidentally always seem to have in common.

    Replacing images[]

    Do not replace images of Saints Row: The Third with image of Saints Row: The Third Remastered.

    Changes should be documented, and images are welcome alongside existing images.

    Ideally, every SRTT image should be replicated, if there is a difference.

    But replacing images of Saints Row: The Third with images of Saints Row: The Third Remastered will be considered vandalism - files will be reverted, and uploaders will be warned, then blocked if they persist.

    Renaming images[]

    We are not going to start renaming images from Saints Row: The Third as "Zimos in Saints Row The Third (original).jpeg" or "Zimos in the original Saints Row The Third.bmp".

    There is no such thing as "Saints Row The Third original".

    Saints Row: The Third is Saints Row: The Third. Images from Saints Row: The Third do not necessarily even need to mention they are from Saints Row: The Third, so long as there is some other indicator, usually the mission name. Since Angel is in no other games, images of Angel do not have to specify Saints Row: The Third.

    Saints Row: The Third Remastered is Saints Row: The Third Remastered. All images of Saints Row: The Third Remastered must specify they are from Saints Row: The Third Remastered.

    452 16:30, May 19, 2020 (UTC) (expanded 12:48, May 23, 2020 (UTC))


    If you're not imagining a Jim Sterling voice when reading the word "caaaanon", then you're reading it wrong. 452 16:30, May 19, 2020 (UTC)

    A significant amount of UI images appear to have been changed. I have not yet decided how those will be handled. Obviously the files will be uploaded, but adding them alongside images in tables would be too cluttered. The best solution is probably just to put them in a separate gallery. 452 16:31, May 19, 2020 (UTC)

  • Audio support being removed

    Wikia Staff are planning a large platform update, which - despite being unfinished - is now forced upon all new wikis, so I created a test wiki to investigate the changes, and fix SRW well ahead of time.

    Among a variety of other problems, the new platform does not have support for Audio files. Or Video files. Or PDFs.

    Currently, supported filetypes on the Saints Row Wiki are:

    png, gif, jpg, jpeg, ico, pdf, svg, odt, ods, odp, odg, odc, odf, odi, odm, ogg, ogv, oga.

    Wikia Staff are reducing this to only:

    png, gif, jpg, jpeg, webp, ico.

    They are removing support for:

    pdf, svg, odt, ods, odp, odg, odc, odf, odi, odm, ogg, ogv, oga.

    The Saints Row Wiki has several PDFs and OGVs, and many ogg audio files. 1431 to be precise.

    I have no idea what will happen to the currently hosted audio files.

    452 16:29, March 12, 2020 (UTC) (more details added 13:35, 3 November 2020 (UTC))

    The update has now occurred. They belatedly added support for Audio, Video, and PDFs.
    Permitted file types: png, gif, jpg, jpeg, webp, ico, pdf, svg, odm, ogg, ogv, oga, flac, opus, wav, webm, mp3.
    Quite surprising is the addition of flac, wav, webm, and mp3 as a supports formats.
    However, they have replaced the player with something that does not match the style of the old player.
    The strange thing is that the old player IS still there, but they're overwriting it with the new player.
    This can easily be seen when going directly to a file page, or an article with many files as the old player can be seen briefly while the page is loading.
    The old player was also still in the random audio template, which bypassed the normal page initialisation, and so the old player was displayed by default, fully functional. However, I have added javascript to initialise the new audio player, so this no longer serves as an example.
    The old player can easily be seen on any page, by disable javascript in your browser, and viewing any page with an audio file.
    452 13:35, 3 November 2020 (UTC) (more details added 20:51, 27 December 2021 (UTC))
    Current accepted filetypes: png, gif, jpg, jpeg, webp, ico, pdf, svg, odm, ogg, ogv, oga, flac, mkv, mov, mp3, wav, webm, opus, mp4.
    Some quite surprising additions.
    I guess I'll have to see if the source files for the ogv files I've uploaded are still around so I can reupload them as mp4 or mkv.
    ~ 452 (talk) 19:46, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
  • User Groups 2020

    It has been quite a while since there has been an major update to the usergroup/to-do list format.

    Last year I reorganized the footers to move the to-do list box between the gallery and the references sections.

    Unfortunately, I no longer have any way of determining whether that increased traffic to the to-do lists, because Wikia decided to remove my access to google analytics, which I had previously used to determine the effectiveness of changes such as this.

    However, it occurred to me recently that - because categories are now shown above the title, it would be possible to simply add all articles to to-do categories directly, via the existing footer, and have a much more prominent link.

    After experimenting with alternate ways to sort the existing forum and user categories in the to-do list, I implemented them today.

    Now, each the category list in each to-do category contains: a list of the forum pages, a list of all articles within the scope, and a list of all users interested in the topic.

    In addition to benefit of the to-do list link in the header, it will now be slightly easier to cross-reference all articles and to-do lists to ensure that all are a member of at least one category.

    Historical discussions:

    452 14:30, January 1, 2020 (UTC)


    As it turns out, category emails are still sent out when changing [[category:to-do/whatever]] to [[category:to-do/whatever|sortkey]], despite the articles not really being removed and re-added. 452 14:30, January 1, 2020 (UTC)

  • No File Page access for Anons

    In their infinite wisdom, Wikia Staff have decided that Anonymous users - everyone who views the wiki without logging in - do not deserve to be able to access File pages.

    What is a File page? Every image or other file on the wiki has a page associated with it.

    Example: File:Keith davids bills d.png. Logged in users can see the File page (open the link in an incognito/private window to see what happens when you're not logged in.)

    But people not logged in are redirected without any notification of the redirect, and have to hunt through the page to find the image themselves.

    What else does this mean?

    • If people who are not logged in try to download an image, it will probably be corrupt. (example)
    • People not logged in cannot easily download the original size version of an image.
    • People not logged in cannot easily see the file page edit history.
    • People not logged in cannot easily see the file upload history.
    • People not logged in cannot see previous versions of the file at all.
    • People not logged in cannot easily see where else a file is used.
    • People not logged in cannot easily access the file talk page.
    • People not logged in cannot easily edit the file page, such as to add a delete template.
    • People not logged in cannot be directly linked to files not used in the main namespace.

    When viewing an article, clicking an image usually shows a popup with a larger version of the image, but not always.

    For instance, all infobox images link directly to File pages, so if someone not logged in clicks on any infobox image, it just refreshes the page - or takes them to a completely different article if the image was first used elsewhere.

    Additionally, all normal links to non-images, such as Game Manual PDFs, become impossible to access. I will update all links to PDFs across the wiki to address this.

    Example PDF link: File:Saints Row online manual xbox.pdf (open the link in an incognito/private window to see what happens when you're not logged in.)

    The purpose of Wikis is freedom of access to information. This is outright discrimination against people who do not have Wikia accounts.

    452 16:20, December 7, 2019 (UTC)


    And so many external links to file pages now won't take people where they wanted to go. The correct way to link people to a file on the wiki is to link to the file page, so that they can then explore the wiki instead of just dead-ending on the file, but now, any links on forums etc will redirect to articles instead. 452 16:38, December 7, 2019 (UTC)

    And due to the lightbox not showing audio and video files, direct links such as this video and this audio file, redirect anon users to the main page, and tells them the file is unavailable. Which is utter fucking bullshit. 452 16:31, January 14, 2020 (UTC)

    The strangest part about this is that they claim it is supposed to help google results. But it provably fucking hurts them, because Google favors larger images - as it should.

    The google results for all images on this wiki either only show main article images, category images, or images from other wikis.

    The reason why is that when you make it more specific, the images are garbage cropped versions - because google is shown the mobile version of Wikia, and cannot access file pages.

    In March, I did an experiment. I kinda forgot about it, but the results are that the image results are better when google can see the larger images. Wow, what a fucking surprise.

    All Gallery sections now show this gallery style, so the google results for the majority of images should improve soon.

    However. There are still many galleries using the old format. Such as Mongoose, which shows the same images in the article as floating slideshows as well as in the Gallery. The image results for that article will be an indicator of whether floating slideshows will remain.

    Meanwhile, the lightbox doesn't work on desktop when clicking slideshows, and doesn't work on mobile when clicking thumbs. Because Wikia Staff still do not have the necessary skills to do something successfully.

    452 15:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

    Google is apparently still seeing square images on Mongoose.
    But when I view Mongoose logged out, and using the mobile skin, I don't see squares. Not even for the floating galleries. But google shows squares.
    I really don't get it. ~ 452 (talk) 16:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Top 10 Lists disabled without warning

    Wikia Staff have deleted 31 Top 10 Lists from the Saints Row Wiki without prior warning.

    On Community Central, Wikia Staff claimed that they contacted wikis with more than 10 Top 10 Lists. They did not contact me, or the Saints Row Wiki, in any form. They have now locked that thread so that people who were not warned cannot complain.

    Strangely, this deletion activity did not appear on Special:RecentChanges with bot edits shown - it only appeared on Special:Log. This is the kind of "under the rug" activity I have always been outspoken against. I do not know what their intention is with hiding the deletions in this way, or why they didn't leave a message on this wiki.

    As users of this wiki are no doubt aware, Top 10 Lists were frequently used on the Saints Row Wiki as both policy and opinion polls.

    Along with proving that the majority of people prefer Saints Row 2 compared with any other game, and dislike Saints Row The Third compared with any other game, Polls decided the outcome of a number of policy issues, including:

    • When admins should be demoted for inactivity.
    • How to deal with Minor Character articles.
    • What content should be allowed in non-article pages.
    • That the wiki should not enable achievements.
    • Whether trailers should be allowed on the wiki.
    • If anonymous users should be allowed to create pages.
    • Which capitalisation should be used for "The Protagonist".

    Sometime within the next month, I will create my own javascript poll replacement.

    452 17:52, February 15, 2017 (UTC)

    Wikia Staff are now attempting to claim that "it appears Top Ten Lists was disabled on your wiki at the time of the feature removal".
    -452 18:02, February 15, 2017 (UTC)
    For the record, Wikia Staff's statement that "Top Ten Lists"[sic] were disabled is provably false.
    • Fact 1. Special:WantedPages shows that there were 31 Top 10 Lists. These were not listed on Special:WantedPages prior to Wikia killing the feature, which means it was active prior to that. When a namespace is disabled, any links to that namespace appear on Special:WantedPages, the same thing happened when I turned off Blogs - WantedPages filled up with links to blog posts. So, if it had been disabled previously, WantedPages would have listed the Top 10 Lists links previously. Unfortunately, there's no way for anyone to verify that they weren't there, unless they looked at WantedPages beforehand.
    • Fact 2. The database dump on special:statistics, and the deletion log, show that I made a comment to a Top 10 List on 2016-12-31: ":Non-article content policies/@comment-452-20161231184955" (At around the same time as this edit)
    • Fact 3. The current database dump on special:statistics shows that Top 10 Lists were still enabled on 2017-02-08.
    • Fact 4. Special:Log/wikifeatures does not show "wgShowTopListsInCreatePage" being disabled - or enabled, because it's been continuously active since July 2011, which is before wikifeatures existed.
    Together, these facts show that it was enabled, and wasn't disabled.
    -452 18:46, February 15, 2017 (UTC)
    Wikia Staff are now claiming that there's no wikifeatures log showing it being disabled because it was disabled by a back-end variable change - and asked me if I'd ever requested for Wikia Staff to disable it.
    Again: Wow.
    If I'd requested for Wikia Staff to disable it, then how was it still active?!.
    Thus far, they have completely ignored the rest of the evidence.
    Isn't it interesting that all the publicly verifiable evidence that proves it was active isn't good enough for them, and they're relying on their own "alternative fact" regarding a back end variable to support what they're saying?
    -452 18:39, February 16, 2017 (UTC)
    Wikia Staff have now accepted the fact that Top 10 lists were indeed enabled here, and have admitted that the Saints Row Wiki should have been contacted regarding this before the feature was removed.
    Now that this matter is settled, I have removed all dead Top 10 Lists links from various discussion pages and wall threads.
    Additionally, I have created my own alternative javascript poll, which Wikia Staff have approved and is now live. Replacement and future polls will be located at Forum:Polls. -452 20:30, February 21, 2017 (UTC)
  • Disabling Message Wall

    Now that all Special:Forum posts have been moved to the Forum: namespace, and all blog posts have been moved to the Forum: namespace, the next obvious step is to move all Message Wall threads to User_talk pages.

    I've mentioned several times in the past that I regret ever enabling Message Wall, but that we were stuck with it because it would mean losing access years of messages. But now, that issue has been solved, as my Forum migration script can easily be adapted to transfer Message Wall threads.

    There are several issues I must first address:

    • Renamed users - this may or may not be an issue, but I need to investigate it.
      • It's not an issue so long as Wikia correctly re-attributed the thread when the user was renamed, which means in the case of any threads created by "user452", there is definitely a problem. Obviously in this case I can automatically correct it, but who know how many other failed renames there have been.
    • Walls which only contain a welcome message - I will be deleting all non-replied welcome message threads ahead of time, and adding the welcome message to all User_talk pages ahead of time also.
      • Note: On second thought, the welcome messages are best added at the same time as importing the converted messages.
      • After deleting all welcome messages, I forgot to disable new ones, so I'll have to do that again.
    New welcome messages will be prepended to all imported User_talk pages, then sometime later I'll add them to empty User_talk pages using GlitchBot.

    Since there are many more Threads tthan Board_threads, this will be a significantly larger task, and may take longer to determine that there are no bugs before performing the transfer.

    Also, since editing a User_talk page generates a notification, I definitely need to ensure that there will not be any problems.

    With both the forum and blog transfers, there are minor issues where pages with too many revisions crashed my browser, so transferring my own message wall is likely to be an arduous task.

    As I said, this will likely not happen for a while - probably more than a month. Feedback is always welcome. 452 15:08, November 21, 2016 (UTC)

    As previously announced, I have begun deleting all welcome message threads, starting with the ones left by User:GlitchBot. -452 15:44, April 27, 2017 (UTC)
    Due to a small oversight, I mistakenly deleted 112 messages which shouldn't have been deleted. However, I saved the database dump prior to starting, so will be able to reconstruct the deleted messages. I will be performing a full review of all threads I have already deleted to ensure there were no other mistakes. -452 15:34, April 28, 2017 (UTC)
    The good news is that I didn't mistakenly delete 112 messages. The bad news is that I've found a lot of old orphaned messages. -452 16:36, April 28, 2017 (UTC)
    There's still the problem of removed and/or deleted thread messages being indistinguishable from visible messages. It was easy enough to delete them in advance for the forum, but slightly harder for Message Wall threads, since there's so damn many of them - so again I wish I'd taken care of this years ago. It's really only a housekeeping issue, but it will still look pretty messy having a bunch of removed messages suddenly reappear.
    One thing is for certain: I will not be manually going through finding these. However, I may still be able to do this in a somewhat automatic fashion. I have several options, not of them particularly appealing. -452 20:20, July 7, 2017 (UTC)
    All removed and/or soft deleted replies hard deleted, now re-checking the same before moving on to checking for removed and deleted top level comments. -452 23:57, July 7, 2017 (UTC)
    All removed and/or soft deleted top level comments hard deleted. Now re-checking all 6266 individual thread entries again, then I'll be moving on to delete the orphans created by this step. -452 13:37, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
    Orphans deleted. -452 15:44, July 8, 2017 (UTC)
    Today I have deleted all old User_talk pages which were blank or contained only the old welcome message. There will be many other pages which end up with duplicate welcome messages. -452 21:22, August 5, 2017 (UTC)
    Despite multiple rounds of deleting orphaned messages, I've found yet more. -452 03:09, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
    Cause found: my orphan matching script was only returning 1 of out any set of orphaned threads. So, there are 24 remaining deleted threads which have a total of 110 orphan children.
    I believe that these 24 threads were deleted July 8th, due to the top level comment being soft-removed. Unfortunately, when hard-deleting pages in the thread namespace, Wikia does not record the deletion summary, so it's impossible for me to be certain at this point. Thanks Wikia, for yet another failure of the Thread system. -452 13:55, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
    Speaking of failures of the thread system, it would appear that CLOSED Threads had exactly the same classes and appearance as REMOVED Threads, causing me to mistakenly delete them. Fuck. Unfortunately, there are some really good closed threads that I wanted to keep, I didn't close many threads, but the ones I did showed people at their worst. I will have to go through each of the 24 threads / 110 messages to see if they need to be undeleted. Normally, undeleting a thread is pointless, as the thread is not restored to the Wall, but my conversion script works with the raw pages, so there is no problem. -452 14:08, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
    Okay, orphans fixed by restoring/deleting appropriate threads. Time to do the Orphan check once again. -452 14:43, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
    At this time, there are no more orphans. -452 15:08, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
    After numerous tests, I finally ran the entire script with the training wheels off, and it predictably crashed when processing my wall. I'm going to have to do this on a computer with more RAM. -452 15:43, July 10, 2017 (UTC)
    It also crashes on at least 1 other large wall. -452 00:01, July 12, 2017 (UTC)
    The problem with it crashing on my wall is due to it exceeding the javascript string limit, so all the RAM in the world wouldn't help.
    On both my wall, and the other, I'll be pre-splitting them and importing separate archive pages.
    I've pre-split the existing pages. -452 21:03, August 16, 2017 (UTC)
    Despite my best efforts, there were a few errors when importing my wall threads from 2012. I know the cause of the problem, and from knowing the cause, I'm fairly confident there was no loss of data.
    The problem occurred because of a logic issue: I was doing 6 months at a time, but I was using reverse logic to include the first 6 months in the first batch and exclude the first 6 months in the second batch. This caused threads started in June to be missing their replies in July in the first batch, and then those replies appearing in the wrong location in the second batch. I moved these to the correct location, but the history looks a little odd, especially since the edit summary contains the wrong information.
    Luckily, there was only one thread which started in June and continued into July. It just happened to be a fairly important thread in the history of this wiki.
    Anyway, I've changed the logic to prevent this happening in the next batches. -452 22:12, August 17, 2017 (UTC)
    Speaking of edit summaries containing the wrong information, apparently in some cases the edit summary contains the wrong section info. At this point I'm not sure why. I will look into the cause, but I won't be redoing the pages I've already imported. -452 02:34, August 18, 2017 (UTC)
    ...well, the edit summary always contained the name of the most recent thread, instead of the thread which was being edited. *facepalm* I was even outputting that information to the console, but never noticed the mistake. It will be fixed going forward, and I will look into redoing what I've already imported. -452 02:49, August 18, 2017 (UTC)
    The main reason I didn't want to redo what I had done was because I thought that separating the 2012 archived user_talk page from the message_wall thread would be too difficult, but it wasn't. There were probably a few maintenance edit entries lost, but the content of the edits themselves was carried over by keeping the recent revision from after the 2011 split.
    Anyway, all previously done has been redone, properly this time. -452 03:07, August 19, 2017 (UTC)
    I have now found a major issue that previously went unnoticed during the blog transfer: comment replies in some situations were moved to the wrong places. This issue wouldn't have occurred very often with blog comments, but would happen very frequently in Message Wall comments. I will be re-reviewing all transferred blog comments to try to find and fix other cases, and I will be improving my script to deal with these. -452 03:24, July 11, 2017 (UTC)
    This issue was present on 26 out of 324 transferred blog pages, which have now been fixed. -452 18:29, July 11, 2017 (UTC)
    Okay, problem found and fixed: I was using the wrong method to sort the threads, resulting in some replies being out of order. I'm now using the correct method, and will continue doing extensive verification to ensure there are no other errors. -452 00:01, July 12, 2017 (UTC)
    Counts after deleting all unreplied welcome messages:
    • Threads: 2151
    • Replies: 4285
    -452 17:51, April 28, 2017 (UTC)
    Counts after deleting all soft removed/deleted messages:
    • Walls: 1084
    • Total threads: 6175
    • First message: 2056
    • Replies: 4119
    452 14:42, July 10, 2017 (UTC)
    Counts today:
    • Walls: 919
    • Total threads: 6070
    • First message: 1892
    • Replies: 4178
    452 15:15, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
    Walls with replies: 414
    452 22:17, August 15, 2017 (UTC)

    Apparently Wikia have made some unannounced backend change to prevent pages moved out of the Thread namespace. This isn't a problem for the Message Wall retirement, as I wasn't going to be using the move function, but it's just one more reason to go ahead with this. -452 18:47, July 7, 2017 (UTC)

    They have also prevented editing pages in the Thread namespace through the API, blocking my auto-file-renamer from automatically updating those pages. Wikia seem insistent on making Message Wall worse and worse. -452 21:56, July 29, 2017 (UTC)
    This also prevents null editing. *facepalm* -452 22:25, August 4, 2017 (UTC)
    And on top of that, they've also removed the edit button from talk page archives. -452 17:26, August 1, 2017 (UTC)

    New slightly major problem: Until now, I've just been testing the transferred wall posts themselves, but I've now added the "retrieve and prepend existing user_talk pages" part... but the trouble is that MANY user_talk pages have had linkfixes and such during the intervening years, so just importing the threads with the current user_talk page prepended will mean that some changes appear in the history before they were actually made, and that when the edits actually do appear in the history, it will look as though I removed the imported threads in those edits instead of making the fix itself... and when multiple fixes have been made to the same page, it would appear that I've actually added the later issues in those edits.
    But the most major problem this causes is that IF the most recent edit to a user_talk page happened SINCE the last thread, the thread will not be present in the current revision, as only previous revisions would be imported.
    I normally find that the act of describing a problem inspires me to immediately think a solution, but this time isn't helping. I'm more just thinking of other side-effects.
    At this stage, I think the most effective solution would be a duplicate final history entry with today's date. -452 22:24, August 7, 2017 (UTC) (edited 22:28, August 7, 2017 (UTC))

    I have implemented this solution, only for those pages which have an old talk page. Fun fact: there are only 85 users who have both a user_talk page and threads on their wall. This number would be larger if I had not already deleted all pages/threads containing only a welcome message. -452 18:16, August 9, 2017 (UTC)

    I almost forgot to omit bot edit sigs again. Right now, everything is about ready to go, I've imported the output to a test wiki, and i'm randomly inspecting dozens of pages, looking for formatting errors. -452 00:20, August 11, 2017 (UTC)

    Minor issue: In threads where the second comment is not a reply to the first comment, but a later comment on the same topic, the indenting looks kinda weird.
    For example: an admin issuing a warning, followed by a second admin using the same thread for a follow-up warning appears as though the second admin is speaking to the first admin and not the user. -452 21:29, August 11, 2017 (UTC)

    Manually correcting these confusing instances isn't feasible, as there are over 400 walls with at least one reply. -452 22:17, August 15, 2017 (UTC)

    Ugh, yet another downside to Message Wall: people using useless HTML in their comments was not immediately noticeable, so there's a bunch of bullshit in the converted pages. -452 14:30, August 18, 2017 (UTC)

    After all Threads have been transferred and deleted, I will also be importing 6000 redirects to honour existing Thread links, I will then replace all of those thread links, and delete the redirects in 1 year. -452 16:49, August 20, 2017 (UTC)

    Right now, I have no idea how many thread links there are, but once the redirects are imported, they will be displayed on Saints Row Wiki:UnusedRedirects. -452 16:51, August 20, 2017 (UTC)

    All pages imported, only 1 error during importing, formatting errors found and fixed on 82 pages, no pages left blank... a better outcome than expected, as I'm used to a lot more unforeseen problems. It looks like spending extra time testing really paid off.
    917 Walls imported + 1 reimported + 82 updated = 980 imports, just like the log says. (2 split Walls imported previously).
    That's it, the hard part is done. Unfortunately, 1 person saw the "new messages" notification and saw fit to leave a reply on a 5 year old thread - which is fine, just annoying as it means I have to re-import that thread now. -452 18:19, August 20, 2017 (UTC)

    I am now disabling Message Wall, hopefully for the final time. -452 18:20, August 20, 2017 (UTC)

    There was one more import I almost forgot: my 2017 wall threads.
    Headers updated, now importing thread redirects. -452 18:39, August 20, 2017 (UTC)

    At this time, I'm going to leave all Thread pages intact, as there's no urgency to delete them. This way, if errors are found, it will be easier to investigate and repair. They'll be deleted sometime before the end of the year. -452 19:19, August 20, 2017 (UTC)
    6091 thread redirects created. For some reason, these are still being detected as being within the "thread" namespace, which doesn't exist anymore. "User_blog" doesn't exist, but "Thread" and "Message_Wall" still do. The upside is that his will make them easier to delete. -452 19:53, August 20, 2017 (UTC)
    Leaving Thread pages for now has helped with the link cleanup, as I'm still able to look up the pages.
    However, while cleaning up Thread links, I've discovered at least one case where some replies were mistakenly deleted back in April because the user had replied to the welcome message. I had tried to exclude threads with replies from being deleted, but I guess I missed some. I could restore the conversation, but it's of no great importance, and since it was originally misposted on a talk page, I've restored it there. -452 16:02, August 21, 2017 (UTC)
    While Special:WantedPages correctly contains red links for now-non-existing Threads (Which SHOULD have been listed on WantedPages long ago, but there was no destination-checking for Thread links), technically the Message Wall pages themselves still exist, and have to be deleted manually before they will appear on WantedPages.
    The only reason to not delete Message_Wall pages immediately is the possibility that I might need to reactivate Message Wall for some reason, but there shouldn't be any reason, as I'm able to determine Thread destinations already. For now I will continue cleaning up Thread links, and return to this later. -452 16:11, August 21, 2017 (UTC)
    After removing all links to threads, and manually checking a many user_talk pages for errors, I've now deleted all threads, as I said. I still have a full thread namespace export as a backup.
    All that remains now are thread redirects, which will remain in place for a year or so, and display a message that the origin of the link needs to be updated. -452 16:14, September 19, 2017 (UTC)
    It has been a little over a year already, deleting thread redirects now. -452 19:28, October 29, 2018 (UTC)
    Deleted pages without an edit summary are supposed to display a "content before deletion was []" message, but that is not happening with these. But it's not particularly important. -452 19:35, October 29, 2018 (UTC)

    I have discovered a small problem: When automatically deleting old user_talk pages prior to merge, I mistakenly deleted some anon user_talk pages. I should have checked the number of contributions or the size of the page, but apparently didn't. I likely only checked that the final edit to the page was the "triggering anon notification" edit by GlitchBot.
    This issue will have only affected anon users who edited BOTH before AND after 2012-01-27 02:43, in other words: long term anon editors, of which there are very few, and the majority of the ones that are are vandals. So, the only thing that would have been lost is various warnings and block messages for vandals, as well as occasional questions for where anons got their information, which were rarely answered anyway. (I uncovered this while examining some old anon blocks for the purposes of compiling anon aliases.)
    I already wrote a database-dump parser to extract anon and users for the purpose of verifying welcome messages, so I can modify that to give me anon edits by date. I can use this to compare "anons who edited before Message Wall was enabled" and "anons who edited after Message Wall was enabled" and hopefully the intersection of those lists will be few enough to manually restore and revert.
    Yet another unexpected Message Wall complication. -452 18:38, June 20, 2018 (UTC)
    Only 98 pages to manually check. -452 20:54, June 20, 2018 (UTC)
    Only 15 pages were mistakenly deleted, they have now been restored and merged. -452 22:05, June 20, 2018 (UTC)
    Unfortunately, I just reviewed a random selection of another 100 deleted user_talk pages, and found another 3 that shouldn't have been deleted. I messed up, because I had completely forgotten that I had had GlitchBot trigger a notification for all anon users in 2015, largely because anons could not see highlighted thread notifications.
    To remedy this, I will write a script to scan all the user_talk pages of all 2000 anon pre-2012 contributors, and manually check all pages which have more than 2 revisions (All have wikia welcome + GlitchBot notifications)
    A big thanks to the persistent multi-year multi-ip vandals, because I likely wouldn't have noticed this without them! -452 22:30, June 20, 2018 (UTC)
    According to my own deleted contributions, there are more than 150 user_talk pages which need to be restored. -452 22:38, June 20, 2018 (UTC)
    There are 219 deleted user_talk pages with more than 2 revisions. Some of these are possibly a link being removed, but the majority will probably need to be restored. -452 00:20, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
    Of those 219, 111 contained non-welcome-message content, and not all of them were from me. The reason it is less than 150 were because some of them were just a link being removed, as I previously suggested.
    I have, however, uncovered 1 additional as-yet-unresolved problem: I generated the list of anon user_talk pages from the full database dump. The full database dump doesn't contain deleted revisions, which means that if a user had no extant revisions, I didn't check their user_talk page. I generated them this way so I would know when they first edited. I will have to now cross-check the list of anons with extant contributions against the list of all user_talk pages, and check the remainder. -452 01:59, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
    Auto-checked another 555 user pages and found another 236 to manually check. That seems unusually high, given that the last batch was only 219, but it's entirely possible that these users created poorly named pages which were deleted, and were left a message about it. -452 02:19, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
    Because I knew from last time that >50% would be not restored, I adapted my script to just show me the summaries instead of having to visit the undelete pages manually. I was half-right: the majority of the user_talk pages were edited to remove the link to the page they created which was deleted.
    Of those 236, only 7 should not have been deleted.
    Unfortunately, I know I'm still not done. I have 1 example that I somehow missed during the previous steps, so I'm going to dump the deleted contribution summaries of all user_talk pages, just to be thorough. -452 02:43, June 21, 2018 (UTC)
    Well that was much more efficient. A final 16 deleted user_talk pages have been restored. -452 03:26, June 21, 2018 (UTC)

    Over the past 2 years, I've been slowing reviewing all converted talk pages.

    Today, I have finally completed the review.

    • 2 edit pages skipped. (10140 pages) There is no need to review these, as it is welcome message + import log.
    • 3 edit pages skipped. (672 pages) There is no need to review these, as it is welcome message + 1 comment + import log.
    • 4 edit pages skipped. (1834 pages) There is no need to review these, as it is welcome message + 1 comment + 1 reply + import log.
    • All 5 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (112 pages)
    • All 6 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (187 pages)
    • All 7 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (82 pages)
    • All 8 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (91 pages)
    • All 9 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (55 pages)
    • All 10 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (37 pages)
    • All 11-14 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (104 pages)
    • All 15-16 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (30 pages)
    • All 17-18 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (13 pages)
    • All 19-20 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (14 pages)
    • All 21-22 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (15 pages)
    • All 23-28 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (24 pages)
    • All 29-35 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (20 pages)
    • All 36-40 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (12 pages)
    • All 41-60 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (26 pages)
    • All 61-90 edit pages have been manually reviewed. (10 pages)
    • All 91+ edit pages have been manually reviewed. (22 pages)

    It is altogether possible that I missed one or two. Oh well. 452 22:16, March 24, 2020 (UTC)

    I did one last pass of all pages with more than 6 edits, and removed a few more duplicate welcomes, but that'll do. 452 22:39, March 24, 2020 (UTC)
    It would appear that users who joined the chat, but never edited the wiki itself, did not get a re-welcome.
    I can fix that, since I still have the list of chat-initiated automated welcomes.
    Not sure if there's really any point.
    ~ 452 (talk) 04:19, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
    Probably not, but done. ~ 452 (talk) 16:10, 1 October 2021 (UTC)


    Wikia Staff have proven that this was the right decision: They are replacing Message Wall with a "Discussions"-based alternative. 452 19:05, March 5, 2020 (UTC)
    And the "new" Message Wall doesn't allow editing.
    I am thoroughly fucking disgusted.
    Even in my most pessimistic scenarios, I could have never predicted they would take away the ability to edit entirely.
    452 16:43, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
    It also:
    • Doesn't have Message Wall Greetings anymore.
    • Doesn't have the function to sort threads by last reply.
    • Doesn't have the function to close threads to prevent future replies while leaving them visible.
    • Doesn't hide deleted threads.
    • Has duplicated every old thread on my Community Central Message Wall.
    And that's just the problems I've seen without ever even using it.
    452 (talk) 13:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Lazy loading and the future of blogs

    When lazy loading was introduced, search engines lost the ability to see blog comments.

    I unfortunately didn't notice this until last year. I immediately asked Wikia Staff if this was intentional, they said they would look into it, but never got back to me.

    I recently remembered this issue again, and asked for a follow-up, and a different member of Wikia Staff replied, instead of the one who was looking into it. They also said they will look into it, but that "I think that, for now, we're OK with this.".

    Wikia Staff have again failed to realise that it doesn't matter what they're okay with, it's what the users of the site are okay with.

    It is unacceptable for blog comments on the Saints Row Wiki not to be discoverable via search engines, as there is a great deal of content in blog comments.

    I've now informed Wikia Staff if they neither fix the problem, nor disable lazy loading here, then all blogs will be moved, and the blog namespace will be disabled.

    Does anyone have any questions, comments, suggestions for alternate implementations? 452, 2016-09-27T18:37:28Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-10-03T19:41:08Z)

    Forum migration is now complete, the next task is migrating blogs.
    Blogs are structured slightly differently than forums, so I'll have to make some updates to my migration script.
    There are approximately 10 times as many Blogs and Blog comments as forum threads and thread comments, so it will probably end up being a little more complicated.
    I will start by moving Blog posts in Category:Wiki News and Category:Game News first, and then move on to the rest in batches.
    But I have a little bit of coding fatigue, so I'll likely be putting this aside for a little while. -452 21:41, November 5, 2016 (UTC)
    • Game News: 21
    • Wiki News: 41
    • Old help topics: 36
    • To-do topics: 102
    • Misc blog posts: 151
    -452 16:13, November 6, 2016 (UTC)
    • Posted by me: 181
    • Posted by others: 165
    Update: first I will be moving the 62 news posts, then the old help topics, then all blogs posted by other people, then the to-do topics, the the rest of my own. Some of my own blog posts will go back to being usersubpages. -452 19:48, November 6, 2016 (UTC)
    Update: But very first, I'll move blog posts with no comments, because there's no additional processing necessary. -452 19:57, November 6, 2016 (UTC)
    It turns out that I was overthinking the problem, and the existence of subcomments really doesn't make a difference. -452 22:39, November 19, 2016 (UTC)
    Edit: It turns out that it did make a difference, but the issue didn't occur very often. -452 03:30, July 11, 2017 (UTC)
    Moving in the aforementioned batches requires additional modification to the script which is really unnecessary at this point, so I'll just be doing them all at once. -452 23:28, November 19, 2016 (UTC)
    After extensive testing, I've uncovered a previously unnoticed javascript sorting problem. Apparently sorting "1, 20, 100" resulted in "1, 100, 20".
    This situation was triggered if an earlier reply in the thread was edited much later than the others, and had a revision ID which was longer.
    The result of this bug is that the intervening edits would be lost, which was luckily glaringly obvious in my test data.
    Apparently this bug wasn't a problem for the forum transfer script: I've double-checked all imported threads, and there's all good. Either the bug wasn't present, or I just got lucky and it was never triggered.
    This is the purpose of extensively testing the scripts, of course, once this bug is dealt with, I should be ready to import.
    -452 17:40, November 20, 2016 (UTC)
    Just to be safe, I manually checked the page history of 123 pages to verify the problem was no longer happening. Importing all non452 blog posts into the forum namespace now. -452 21:40, November 20, 2016 (UTC)
    With the forum transfer, I deliberately didn't include edit summaries, as they were not used for the forum - however, they were used for blogs. So I'll be deleting the imported pages and reimporting them with edit summaries. -452 22:50, November 20, 2016 (UTC)
    Transfer done, with comments.
    I've just manually inspected the history all all transferred blog posts to verify that there were no accidental blankings.
    In hindsight, I should have omitted the "last edited by (bot)" sigs.
    Next steps:
    • Update all posts in Category:Unsorted
    1. Change all blog posts to redirects - done
    2. Export all blog post redirects - done
    3. Delete everything in the user_blog and user_blog_comment namespaces - done
    4. Disable the blog feature - done
    5. Import the previously exported redirects so that legacy links are honoured. - done
      • These redirects will be kept for at least one year.
    6. Wait for the Special page cache to update, fix all double/broken redirects - waiting
    7. Gradually update internal links to blog redirects to point to the forum post.
    -452 15:20, November 21, 2016 (UTC)
    Something which I wasn't anticipating is that Special:WhatLinksHere does not properly handle when a namespace is disabled, and is currently reporting that there are no links to any user_blog pages, when I know that there are.
    If I had known, I could have made a list after step 1.
    As it stands, I would have to massnulledit all pages, which I don't really want to do.
    It is possible, but unknown for sure, that the special page cache update may refresh all the links. Or it may not.
    Another option is to re-enable blogs, re-import the user_blog redirects, get the list of links to those redirects, delete the redirects, disable blogs again. I was thinking of doing that, until typing out those steps.
    The other other way is going through the database dump and finding all the links, which I think is the way I'm going to have to do it. -452 18:25, November 21, 2016 (UTC)
    The special page cache update did not refresh all links, it simply added a bunch of broken links to WantedPages which shouldn't be broken due to the presence of the redirects. I had already made a list of pages which needed to be purged, but I wanted to see if the issue would resolve itself first. Purging now, hopefully those broken links will disappear in tomorrow's special cache update. -452 11:05, November 22, 2016 (UTC)

    Purging all pages manually worked. I deliberately left 2 links unpurged, and apparently I missed a third. I've now fixed two, including the one I missed, and have left a final one.
    Also, in hindsight, I should have added a "Comments" heading below each first post to allow easy section editing for long pages. -452 09:14, November 23, 2016 (UTC)
    It wasn't specifically mentioned here, but all of the User_blog redirects showed a notice that the directs would be deleted on 2018-01-01 - I forgot about that, but have now deleted them.
    Anyone arriving at the wiki using a User_blog link, such as will now be shown the deletion message, including a link to the Forum post. -452 05:08, January 23, 2018 (UTC)
  • Discussions and the future of the Forum

    It's a well known fact that Wikia never bothered to complete these "New" forums.

    Wikia have now decided that instead of finishing it, they're scrapping it and replacing it with a new feature which looks like twitter.

    All wikis that use the New Forums will be automatically switched over to the new "Discussions" feature. As such, I will be transferring all existing New Forum threads back to the old Forum, and disabling the New Forum.

    I will be performing the transfer via import, so that all usernames and timestamps will be correctly attributed to the poster. All previous old-style forum posts which were transferred to blog posts will be transferred back to the old-style forum.

    I will be fully-deleting all previously soft-removed off-topic comments ahead of time, as there is no way for me to automatically determine whether a comment has been soft-removed when performing the transfer.

    Wikia has not yet revealed their timeline, so there is no immediate rush, but I will likely be performing this migration within a month or two.

    Users are welcome to continue posting to the forum up until the migration takes place - the transfer will be done semi-automatically on the final day, so no "new" posts will be lost. 452, 2016-09-20T03:08:43Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-10-03T19:41:01Z)

    Update: the hardest part of the forum-reformatting script is complete.
    The next step is extensive testing.
    452, 2016-10-05T14:04:14Z
    Testing has revealed a minor problem, which I knew about in the beginning: getting the revision order correct.
    My draft notes acknowledged the problem, but then my implementation kinda skipped over that issue.
    But I'm glad the problem occurred the way it did, because it was obvious to notice, and if it had failed silently, I may not have noticed it.
    Edit: Nope, I implemented my original idea correctly, revision order is correct, the problem is just nbsps and other &s
    And, as usual, non-breaking spaces fuck things up completely, so I need to replace all special characters.
    Luckily, I can copy and paste my htmlentities.js script - but the point is that I shouldn't have to clean up junk left which should have been encoded when the page was saved.
    452, 2016-11-03T19:08:52Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-11-04T00:05:46Z)
    And we're back. I'll recategorise all posts manually before deleting the New forums. -452 11:34, November 5, 2016 (UTC)

    For anyone interested, here is the list of transfers:

    -452 17:09, November 5, 2016 (UTC)

    Now that all threads have been transferred and sorted, all the threads have now been deleted. -452 17:37, November 5, 2016 (UTC)

    Wikia Staff have now disabled Special:Forum, as requested -452 19:38, November 5, 2016 (UTC)
    I believe I have now updated all links to Special:Forum, and Board:whatever - it may be possible that I missed one or two, I'll do a recheck once the database dump updates
    I've also created redirects for all of the old Thread links, so that all external links are honoured. -452 21:26, November 5, 2016 (UTC)

    When Message Wall is disabled, all of these redirects will have to be updated, as "Thread:X" links will no longer auto-matically redirect to "Message_Wall:X". -452 23:23, August 7, 2017 (UTC)

    Done. -452 18:40, August 20, 2017 (UTC)

    Wow. I just noticed that Discussions has been sneakily enabled on another wiki where I am an admin, and wow: it's even worse than I imagined. Wikia really know how to out-do themselves.
    Way back in my first comment above, I said I would be "fully-deleting all previously soft-removed comments", so that they didn't carry over - Wikia didn't bother, and have transferred over all deleted/removed forum comments, without any way to fully delete them.
    The ability to fully delete something is something that admins have always been able to do. Discussions takes that ability away.
    They've also recently added image uploading to discussions - completely bypassing file pages and filename blacklists. Proving once again that Discussions is a tacked-on kludge which is does not function in the spirit of a wiki.
    I'm so glad we will not be having that nonsense here. -452 16:20, November 22, 2017 (UTC)

    Even after discovering that I had scheduled the user_blog redirects for deletion at the start of this year, I completely forgot that these thread redirects also had to be deleted.
    These Thread redirects have now been deleted, the only remaining thread redirects are for Message_Wall threads, and they will be deleted whenever I remember after September.
    -452 05:33, January 23, 2018 (UTC)

    When I transferred Special:Forum posts to Forum: posts, I ensured that all links to existing posts and replies redirected correctly.
    Wikia, on the other hand, when transferring the same to "Discussions", immediately broke all reply links.
    A reminder: I am an unpaid individual. Wikia is a multi-million-dollar corporation who pay hundreds of employees.
    ~ 452 (talk) 15:04, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  • 900 referenced articles

    As of today, there are 900 articles with references, which is appropriately two thirds of all articles.

    The Saints Row Wiki is more verifiably accurate than ever!

    Currently, there are still 250 articles with reference requests, and 35 articles with unlabelled references which need to be updated.

    When I first started, there were no references at all. Soon after I joined, a basic version of references was introduced. A few months later, I created {{ref}}, and have been improving it gradually over the years.

    At first, I didn't see the point of references, but after encountering the pervasive notion that "wikis can be edited by anyone therefore are unreliable", I soon came to the realisation that the best way to combat this ignorance was by using references where-ever possible.

    The beauty of a wiki is that anyone can challenge the accuracy of information. Anyone can edit an article and add {{ref?}} to mark something with needs a reference.

    References have become especially important when adding pre-release information. If we were to state "Saints Row IV has a cover system and no Zombies" without attributing those statements to Jim Boone, people could blame the wiki for that false information. 452 - 2016-06-03 06:54:12

  • Anon editing disabled (temporarily, now enabled)

    Since 2012, I have been reporting a bug to Wikia Staff which causes categories to be duplicated.

    In 2013, I actually went out of my way to help them diagnose the problem, because I naively believed that they actually cared about the quality of their website, and would fix the problem.

    Originally, the bug occured to both logged in users and anon users, but they fixed something so that logged in users can no longer cause the bug, but anons still can. They have known that anons can still cause the bug since 2013.

    In 2014, they claimed to know the cause of the anon duplicate, but still have not fixed the problem.

    Wikia have known about this issue for 4 years, but have still not fixed it, and expect users to clean up after a bug which they allow to continue.

    As it is irresponsible to allow a known bug to continue, I have now disabled anon editing.

    Once Wikia announce that this bug has been fixed, I will re-enable anon editing.

    I am sorry I allowed this bug to continue for so long, I should have disabled anon editing much sooner. I have now removed all duplicate categories from articles.

    If you want anon editing re-enabled, please use Special:Contact to request that Wikia Staff fix this bug.

    Here is a list of 49 edits on this wiki which have triggered the bug:

    452, 2016-06-01T22:55:04Z (last edited: 452, 2016-08-02T00:49:15Z)

    I personally agree with disabling anon editing. Less spam and vandalism to deal with.
    Ghost Leader, 2016-06-05T05:21:41Z

    The issue appears to have finally been fixed, and anon editing re-enabled 2016-06-25. During the past month, I have not seen a recurrence of the issue, but if the issue does recur, anon editing will be immediately disabled again. 452, 2016-08-02T00:50:44Z (last edited: 452, 2016-08-02T00:51:16Z)

  • Inactive user image policy

    Like all Wikia wikis, the Saints Row Wiki is not a free personal hosting site, web storage facility, or image repository.

    Like many wikis, this wiki allows users to upload images for use on their userpages, as outlined on Saints Row Wiki:Accounts#User Pages.

    The current policy for unused non-article files is immediate deletion, but there is no current policy about what to do with non-article files which are in use on the userpages of inactive users.

    For example, File:Chover.jpg was uploaded in 2010 by User:Shawnandrozee, who has not been active since 2010.

    I could simply propose the image for deletion, and then delete it after a month, but it really seems like this is something that should be able to be immediately deleted due to inactivity without a further waiting period.

    I propose that non-article files used on userpages of inactive users be eligible for immediate deletion after the uploader has been inactive for over 1 year.

    Does anyone have any thoughts, or suggestions?

    If you disagree with deleting non-article files uploaded by inactive users, please clearly explain why inactive users should be allowed to perpetually use Wikia as a free personal hosting site.

    edit: added "used on userpages of inactive users", as this policy would not apply to non-article files used on talk pages which were uploaded as examples of something. 452, 2016-06-01T05:27:17Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-09-15T16:46:48Z)

    Keep the characters, cars, car logos, and other important stuff's images uploaded by inactives. Delete the non-important stuff uploaded by inactives.
    Sonic2007, 2016-06-01T09:28:52Z
    I personally agree with this. Users who are inactive for over a year are unlikely to come back or at the very least forget about non-article files they uploaded.
    Danthepest, 2016-06-01T10:32:11Z
    ^I agree.
    Ghost Leader, 2016-06-05T05:23:03Z
    As it has been proposed for 2 months with no dissent, this is now policy.
    I'll add a note to the relevant policy pages, and will remove these inactive user images when I see them.
    I've mostly been seeing them while renaming poorly named images, so in future I will be deleting poorly named userpage images instead of deleting them if the users have been inactive for over a year.
    452, 2016-08-02T00:54:10Z
  • New Translation request template

    From time to time, helpful bilingual people add translations to the wiki, but we've never really kept track of which pages need translations.

    I have now created Category:Translation requests and {{translate}}.

    If you notice a mission or character page which needs a translation, mark it with {{translate}}. To specify which language needs to be translated, add the name of the language as the first parameter, for example: {{translate|Spanish}}

    If you speak Spanish, Japanese, Chinese, French, or any other language used by any of the characters in the series, check Category:Translation requests to see if there is any dialogue marked for translation that you can help with.

    Please add a transcript of the audio itself, as well as a translation into English. 452, 2016-05-21T03:03:39Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-08-02T00:59:50Z)

    Future Beetle, 2016-05-21T17:29:14Z
  • April Fools' day 2016

    I hope everyone enjoyed April Fools' Day this year.

    If you missed it, you can either set your computer's date back temporarily, or edit Special:MyPage/common.js with:

    importArticles({ type: 'script', article: 'user:452/SaintsRow.js' });

    I've personally had this script active since last August, and it's a constant source of amusement. 452, 2016-04-02T15:57:20Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-04-03T14:49:19Z)

    In case anyone is wondering, yes, this is still active. The jokes from 2016, 2017, and the new one from 2018 will continue to be available via both methods. -452 13:45, April 2, 2018 (UTC)
    Wikia Staff have now decided that April Fools Day is banned, so the previous methods of re-enabling the previous year's jokes no longer work.
    In previous years, they were fine with:
    • Changing the name of the name on every page
    • Adding a nonsense tip to the top of every page
    • Adding a improper source to the start of every line
    But apparently adding fake advertisements for Saints Row brands above every heading hits a little too close to home for them.
    ~ 452 (talk) 00:06, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Reference marker style

    In October 2015, I began a trial of replacing the reference marker from [1] to *.

    (All references in this post are fake)

    The purpose[2] of the change[3] was to make the references[4] less obtrusive[5], as the default format[6] was sometimes jarring[7] when reading a paragraph[8] containing many of them.[8]

    The trial* went so well* that no-one mentioned it* until yesterday*, when one person contacted me* to tell me they were hard to see.*

    I have now enlarged them*, to make them slightly* easier to see*, while trying* to keep them as unobtrusive* as possible.*

    1. Which version do you prefer?
    2. Do you think the * version is too hard to see?
    3. Do you think the * version is too large?
    4. Would you prefer either the * or * be gray?
    5. Do you have any other suggestions?

    Here are some examples from an article:

    Default style

    Small asterisk style

    Large asterisk style

    452, 2016-03-10T16:35:37Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-04-28T02:06:39Z)

    Gray is less noticeable IMO. The small * looks okay for me.
    Kaminaze, 2016-04-28T02:00:09Z
    A few months ago I changed the * back to [1], and not a single person has complained.
    I personally prefer the * format, but I believe it was leading people to ignore references.
    This wiki is built on references, it's the only way to ensure that facts are correct, and that people can trust the wiki.
    Unfortunately, many people simply ignore the references in one particular article that really needs people to read the references in order to understand the article.
    I suppose another solution is to just integrate the references in that article into the text, but I really don't want to do that. I shouldn't have to make a special case for one article, just because people are too stupid to read a reference before complaining that they think the information is wrong.
    I will likely change the [1] back to * at some point.
    452 13:53, December 8, 2019 (UTC)
  • Changing "Description" headings to "Overview"

    In many cases, the heading "Description" doesn't properly describe that section.

    The reason the term "Description" was used is that it was part of the default page layout.

    Another term which was in use in some articles long ago was "Overview", which is somewhat more appropriate in many cases.

    I propose changing "Description" to "Overview".

    Can anyone suggest a more appropriate heading for the first section of an article? 452, 2016-01-01T15:05:49Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-03-13T00:41:04Z)

    No other suggestions then? Great, "Overview" it is. I'll add it to my autoreplacer and imagerenamer scripts.
    The standard rules for switching apply:
    • Do change the heading from "Description" to "Overview" when editing an article.
    • Do not edit an article to only change the heading from "Description" to "Overview".
      • All articles need some kind of improvement: there is always something else which needs to be changed or added.
    • Exception 1: When someone else doesn't.
      • If a page has been edited within the last week or so, and the heading was not changed, it is acceptable to edit the page and make only that change.
    • Exception 2: The last 20.
      • In several months, when there are less than 20 pages with the old heading, it's acceptable to switch them all over at once. This exception typically applies to templates, when it's desirable to get the switch finished so the old template can be deleted. It's less important with this change, as it's just a heading.
    452, 2016-02-06T00:52:05Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-09-14T15:57:41Z)
    Unfortunately, unlike template replacements, there's no easy way to monitor progress, so it's harder to determine when "The last 20" clause comes into effect.
    I imagine the final replacement purge will take place during the last week of the year, as is usually the case.
    Actually, it's pretty simple: The purge will take place when there are fewer than 20 pages edited before 2016-01-01 on Special:AncientPages - there are currently 543 remaining, so we're already half way there.
    Pages edited before 2016-01-01:
    • 518 at 16:53, March 27, 2016 (UTC)
    • 499 at 12:44, March 30, 2016 (UTC)
    • 313 at 02:42, June 25, 2016 (UTC)
    • 291 at 04:25, July 3, 2016 (UTC)
    • 198 at 21:51, August 13, 2016 (UTC)
    • 179 at 16:31, September 1, 2016 (UTC)
    • 84 at 00:28, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
    Pages containing the Overview heading:
    • 781 at 04:25, July 3, 2016 (UTC)
    452, 2016-03-13T00:42:11Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-10-18T00:28:44Z)
    Going from the AncientPages list alone, I believe there are only 3 articles left with a Description heading. 452 01:39, September 20, 2019 (UTC)
  • Special:NewFiles Highlighting

    I have added a red outline to unused images on Special:NewFiles to make it easier to check which have been added to articles.

    Unlike Special:UnusedFiles and Saints Row Wiki:UnusedFiles, Special:NewFiles is not cached, and updates immediately.

    While single broken images are added to Category:Broken file links immediately, broken images in the gallery are not, and are only added to Special:WantedFiles when the daily cache updates, so the highlighting on Special:NewFiles is useful to double-check that an image was added correctly. (As I just did)

    Another benefit of Special:NewFiles is that it has no limit, and can be used to browse all images back to the creation of the wiki. 452, 2015-10-27T16:19:16Z
    (last edited: 452, 2015-12-13T16:38:11Z)

    A non-news note:
    While all users are encouraged to use Special:UnusedFiles, Saints Row Wiki:UnusedFiles, and Special:NewFiles to add unused images to articles, I personally think that users who have recently uploaded an image should be given the opportunity to add their images to articles themselves.
    edit: Allowing users the opportunity to do something they have proposed has been part of the written policies of this wiki since 2012, via the "Proposals" section of the discussion policies page. The file policies page has recently been updated to reflect this more clearly.
    452, 2015-10-27T16:23:28Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-06-25T02:20:18Z)
  • To all mobile skin users

    It is not my fault that the Saints Row Wiki now looks terrible in the mobile skin, and at this time there is nothing I can do to undo the changes.

    If you scroll to the bottom of any page while using the mobile skin, there is a "full site" link which will load the full skin.

    I would say "I'm sorry", but it would be meaningless as I am in no way responsible for it.

    Wikia Staff made this change without announcing it, so there was not even the opportunity to give feedback before it went live.

    With the old mobile skin, I regularly checked how it looked and made adjustments to ensure nothing looked broken, but the new skin has undone all of that.

    As this is how Wikia Staff intend for the mobile site to look, and yet another case of them trying to "fix" something that was not broken, I will not be addressing any of the problems with it, and I suggest that all mobile users simply use the desktop skin.

    452, 2015-09-02T19:45:34Z (last edited: 452, 2016-03-22T14:52:22Z)

    I'd forgotten I'd made this thread.
    See also Forum:mobile skin known issues for a range of issues which I have no control over fixing.
    452, 2016-03-22T14:52:11Z
  • Wikia layout changes

    As you may have noticed, Wikia has recently tweaked the display of articles at different resolutions.

    You should have received a notification about this in the bottom right corner linking to the announcement.

    In 2012, Wikia had a fixed-content-width, which showed the exact same content space on all screens. Then they changed to what they referred to as "Fluid layout", which means that the content area expanded, so that wider screens showed more content on a line.

    This was great, because it meant there was less empty space.

    Unfortunately, some people on other wikis decided to format their content only for their own screens, and completely ignored people with smaller screens than themselves.

    What this meant is that people with 1600px wide screens made tables that were perfect for themselves, and horribly cramped, or broken, for people with 1440px, 1280px, 1024px or 800px wide screens.

    Because these people were ruining it for everyone else, Wikia has now changed how articles look on wider screens, to make them look closer to how they look on smaller screens.

    I've always optimised the content of the Saints Row Wiki for the minimum width of 678px, so the only thing I had to update was the custom CSS, a few bugs, and unexpected side effects, such as the "New Files" module heading being overly large.

    No-one should see any broken content here.

    • If you have a screen width below 1574px wide, you should see no changes.
    • If you have a screen width over 1575px wide, you are now classified as "Desktop XL", and you should see larger fonts. I'm sorry that the wiki looks different for you, and if you preferred smaller fonts and seeing more on your screen at once. I would appreciate some screenshots of how things look for you now.

    If you see anything which looks odd/broken at all, please let me know. 452, 2015-05-22T03:29:22Z
    (last edited: 452, 2015-06-27T05:30:45Z)

  • Blank Notification Emails

    Starting tomorrow, anyone who has unchecked "Send me HTML emails" in Special:Preferences will receive blank notification emails.

    Wikia Staff have confirmed that this is intentional. 452, 2015-04-14T00:26:06Z
    (last edited: 452, 2015-04-14T00:26:25Z)

    Good news, nobody! Wikia have, for reasons unknown, decided to re-implement plain-text emails after all. Three cheers for good practices prevailing!

    edit: So much for that.
    They have now removed the "Send me HTML emails" checkbox entirely.
    They are now sending a text/plain portion in their default emails, but unfortunately, their idea of "Plain text" differs from the rest of the world, and they literally just strip the formatting from the HTML version of the email: meaning no links.
    452, 2015-04-24T08:49:04Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-06-25T02:35:02Z)
  • Category Exhibition disabled

    I have disabled the "Category Exhibition" feature, again, due to additional bugs I've uncovered in this feature.

    I liked this feature, so it's a shame that there are so many bugs with it.

    If at some point in the future someone would like me to re-enable this feature, leave a message here and I will review whether the problems I have reported have been fixed.

    For reference, here is a little history:

    • 2011-07-09: Enabled for the first time
    • 2012-12-03: Disabled due to problems
    • 2013-07-15: Enabled and immediately disabled it again - apparently there were still problems
    • 2014-02-23: Enabled it again.
    • 2015-03-13: Disabled again. (today)

    452, 2015-04-13T22:04:30Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-06-25T02:30:30Z)

  • Updating references

    As you may have noticed, I've been periodically updating old references since December.

    There are currently 3 maintenance pages listing references which need to be updated. These are relatively easy tasks which anyone can do, and are a great way for new contributors to increase their edit count.

    References needing descriptions - complete

    References which are missing various types of descriptions, including image and youtube references without captions, as well as raw links.

    This is the most important of these three tasks, because adding descriptions improves the wiki. I have already updated several hundred of these over the past 5 months, and am I leaving it to others to add captions to images and descriptions to youtube links.

    As well as being listed on that page, and categorised, references without descriptions are marked in red [1] in articles to draw attention to them.

    • 2014-11-16 - 844 listed, 459 minimum, on 210 pages. (385 difference) (274 highlighted)
    • 2014-11-18 - 748 listed, 383 minimum, on 191 pages. (365 difference)
    • 2014-11-19 - 601 listed, 372 minimum, on 186 pages. (229 difference)
    • 2014-11-23 - 438 listed, 310 minimum, on 175 pages. (128 difference)
    • 2014-12-07 - 371 listed, 272 minimum, on 153 pages. (99 difference)
    • 2014-12-14 - 323 listed, 232 minimum, on 146 pages. (91 difference)
    • 2014-12-18 - 288 listed, 210 minimum, on 123 pages. (78 difference) (155 highlighted)
    • 2014-12-29 - 250 listed, 170 minimum, on 108 pages. (80 difference) (132 highlighted)
    • 2015-02-08 - 183 listed, 124 minimum, on 76 pages. (59 difference) (105 highlighted)
    • 2015-04-01 - 116 listed, 84 minimum, on 45 pages. (32 difference)
    • 2015-04-09 - 90 listed, 63 minimum, on 25 pages. (27 difference) (65 highlighted)
    • 2015-04-09 - 158 listed, ~ minimum, on 38 pages. (~ difference) (106 highlighted)

    (I have updated a number of old-style image references in order to list them here)

    • "listed" refers to the number of items on this page, which unfortunately includes subsequent uses of named references.
    • "minimum" refered to the number of incomplete references on Saints Row Wiki:Sandbox/references, which merged identical references used on multiple pages. (That page is now non-functional.)
      • It is possible for "listed" to go down while "minimum" stays the same, but not vice-versa.
      • The minimum is now less than the number highlighted on this page. This is due to identical references on different pages.
    • "pages" is accurate. Each of the pages below contains at least one reference which needs a label.
    • "difference" is the difference between "listed" and "minimum". It is estimated that 1/3 of the "difference" count is due to named references, and the rest due to duplicate references on multiple pages.
    • "highlighted" entries have red labels indicating that exact problem with the ref.
    Long unnamed references - complete

    References over 200 characters long, which should be changed to named references to reduce the size. Details about named references can be found on template:ref.

    This is the least important of these three tasks, and is non-essential as it does not effect either reading or editing, just the length of the url when you click on a reference. I have updated many of the longest references over the past 5 months, and will continue to update them until there are no unnamed references longer than 200 characters.

    As well as being being listed on that page, and categorised, unnamed references are marked with red exclamation mark ! in the reference section to draw attention to them.

    Old-style references - complete

    Old-style image and youtube references, which must now use the image= and youtube= parameters. Details about these parameters can be found on template:ref.

    Although updating these references shouldn't change the displayed information, this is still an essential task that must be completed as it will make the pages easy to edit, and the references easier to maintain.

    I have completed updating all of these, and all future uses of the old-style format will be automatically marked as broken.

    As well as being listed on that page, old-style references are marked with red exclamation mark ! in the reference section to draw attention to them.

    If anyone doesn't understand the documentation on template:ref, feel free to let me know what is unclear so I can update it.

    452, 2015-04-11T20:22:28Z (last edited: 452, 2016-05-18T01:15:10Z)

    Old-style and long references are currently not marked in articles, as the implementation was breaking named references. So I'll be re-implementing it another way.
    • Old-style references are now marked with !
    • Long references remain unmarked, for now. (Marked after 02:12, June 29, 2015 (UTC))
    452, 2015-04-16T21:46:01Z (last edited: 452, 2015-06-29T02:12:53Z)
    So it's clear:
    • I will not be adding captions/descriptions to images and youtube links, as that is a very easy task that anyone can do and is very easy to notice and fix. I've already added descriptions for hundreds of other cases, so these are all that is left.
    • I will continue to update old style references as I edit. I've already updated hundreds of other cases.
    • I will continue to specifically edit articles to add names to long references, as this is something that other people are unlikely to do as it is unmarked.
    452, 2015-05-01T18:14:16Z (last edited: 452, 2015-07-13T13:43:06Z)
    All overly long unnamed references have now been named.
    All old-style references have now been updated.
    I will not be going through the list of references without descriptions - those are left for others to do, as it is an easy task.
    452, 2016-02-19T22:40:42Z
    I have examined the history of all pages which contain references without descriptions, and fixed those I was responsible for, and those left by anons. I have contacted the users responsible regarding the remaining references without descriptions.
    During the examination, I discovered several recent mistakes, such as an image reference which omitted the "image=", and other typos - these cases are exactly what this maintenance category is for, but were not noticed immediately due to backlog of references without descriptions from years ago.
    452 01:54, December 15, 2016 (UTC)
    All references without descriptions are now automatically marked as broken. -452 16:54, January 2, 2017 (UTC)
    All references without names are now automatically marked as broken, as the origin subtle "!" is now unnecessary, since all long unnamed references were named 5 years ago. ~ 452 (talk) 19:00, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
  • April Fools' day 2015

    Everyone please welcome our new administrators, <span class="insertusername"></span>!

    452, 2015-04-01T13:53:55Z (last edited: 452, 2016-04-02T15:58:15Z)

    edit: April Fools' Day is over.
    • Everyone saw themselves listed above
    • Everyone had an admin tag on all user profiles, and in Threads
    • Everyone saw a tag on their own profile which said "Leader of the Saints"
    • 452 had a "Blocked" tag.
    452, 2016-04-02T15:58:15Z
    Oh my gerd! Thanks, 452.
    Leakyline, 2015-04-01T15:56:28Z
    Thanks, I feel alarmed.
    Six18, 2015-04-01T21:14:32Z (edited: 452, 2015-04-01T21:15:47Z)
  • Disabling Syntax Highlighting

    Does anyone at all on the Saints Row Wiki care whether the new Syntax Highlighting is switched off?

    As I mentioned in my last post, on March 9th, when I had Syntax Highlighting turned on, there was supposed to have been an option added to Special:Preferences to turn off highlighting, but the option they have added only turns it off for articles, and not for JS and CSS pages.

    I only volunteered to test it here because I thought they would add the ability to fully turn it off.

    As the primary editor of this wiki's JS and CSS pages, this extension is hampering my ability to edit JS and CSS for multiple reasons, and is introducing mistakes in my edits - it is not good for the Wiki if I cannot edit JS and CSS efficiently.

    • Is anyone here benefiting from Syntax Highlighting?
    • Will you miss Syntax Highlighting if it is turned off temporarily? (Until they fix the preference so that each user has the ability to fully turn it off for themselves)

    452, 2015-03-27T17:45:12Z (last edited: 452, 2016-08-02T01:01:43Z)

    If you could provide a screenshot, it would help. I'd rather we keep it on in case of Anon's or certain users.
    Six18, 2015-03-28T16:41:33Z
    A screenshot of what?
    • Do you benefit from Syntax Highlighting?
    • Will you miss Syntax Highlighting if it is turned off temporarily? (Until they fix the preference so that each user has the ability to fully turn it off for themselves)
    Incidentally, you are a person who has been affected by my ability to not edit JS efficiently.
    Remember when you were being impatient over how long it was taking me to add the star to your user page? That's because I was having difficulty editing the JS page due to problems with the highlighting helper.
    452, 2015-03-28T17:06:31Z (last edited: 452, 2015-03-28T17:20:06Z)
    The star thing was a joke but i appriciate you doing it. What is Syntax highlighting in general? When I asked about the screenshot, I was asking for one of what it looks like/is like.
    EDIT: I've googled it, nope. I wouldn't be affected, don't code HTML so doesn't concern me.
    Six18, 2015-03-28T18:23:23Z (last edited: Six18, 2015-03-28T18:24:27Z)
    After passing along the lack of responses here to Wikia Staff, they have agreed to disable Syntax Highlighting here while they "look into adding the CSS/JS user preference."
    452, 2015-04-08T19:19:15Z
    I just made my first edit to MediaWiki:Common.css since Syntax Highlighting has been disabled, and it was great that I was able to press ctrl-f and search immediately without having to click in the custom Syntax Highlighting edit area first to ensure I was using the custom Syntax Highlighting search function.
    Hopefully Wikia Staff will soon add an user preference to disable it so that it can be available for anyone who does want to use it.
    452, 2015-04-09T18:35:04Z (last edited: 452, 2015-04-09T18:38:47Z)
  • Enabling Syntax Highlighting

    Wikia Staff have announced a new syntax highlighting feature, and I have volunteered the Saints Row Wiki to be part of the beta.

    See User blog:Kirkburn/Syntax highlighting - helping you read and write code for an explanation of the feature.

    This effects users who use the "Source" tab of the "classic rich text editor", or the plain Source editor. In case you're unaware, you can choose your preferred editor via Special:Preferences. Eventually, there will be an option in the user preferences to turn off highlighting, but it hasn't been implemented yet.

    I use the "Source editor", because it's the fastest, and you can see what you're actually changing, unlike the other two modes, which often mess up formatting.

    Apart from changing the colours on the editing page, this feature shouldn't change anything else - if you do see any problems, let me know here and I'll ask Wikia Staff to turn off the feature. If you're a regular editor, and the highlighting discourages you from editing and would like it turned off until there's a user preference, please let me know.

    Any general feedback about the feature - such as things you like or dislike about it, or ways it can be improved - can be left here, or sent directly to Wikia Staff via Special:Contact. 452, 2015-03-09T18:52:34Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-08-02T01:01:41Z)

    And my feedback: I'm worried that the blocks of differently coloured backgrounds will be too distracting.
    I'm used to syntax highlighting changing the text colour, but I don't know whether I've ever used an IDE that changes the background colour. (That said, I personally change the background colour of comments in my text editor, but that's not the default behaviour.)
    452, 2015-03-09T19:18:04Z
    There appears to be a situation where the highlighting becomes unsynced with the text, and doesn't scroll.
    452, 2015-03-10T20:21:09Z
  • Random/Specific Tab loading

    The observant amongst you may have noticed that starting a few weeks ago, a random dialogue tab is chosen when you load a page. (Used mostly on SRTT/SRIV mission pages)

    If you didn't notice, check it out: Learning Computer#Prologue

    Thanks to a suggestion today, I've now also implemented linking to a specific tab: Learning Computer#Female 2.

    This probably won't be too useful, but it's there if anyone wants to use it. 452, 2015-01-30T02:46:50Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-01-30T19:10:32Z)

    As many tabbers have been replaced with collapsed dialogue sections, I've now enabled a randomiser there - with Zombie voice excluded.
    452, 2016-01-30T19:11:34Z
  • Additional moderator rights

    Currently, the "Discussions Moderators" group can only perform admin functions on Forums and Walls.

    I propose that the "Discussions Moderators" group also be given the ability to perform the same functions on Blog and Comments, because those are also discussions which normal users cannot edit.

    It has been proposed by multiple users on Community Central already, so may become default eventually, but I want to enable here immediately instead of waiting.

    Of course, we don't have any Discussions Moderators yet, see Thread:67886 if you would like to be one.

    Specific rights:

    • Move blog articles (blog-articles-move)
    • Toggle comments on blog articles (blog-comments-toggle) - this is necessary after a move.
    • Edit blog articles (blog-articles-edit) - All users on the Saints Row Wiki can now edit blog articles.
    • Delete comments on blog articles (blog-comments-delete) Now default.
    • Edit blog comments (commentedit) Now default.
    • Delete other commentdelete (commentdelete) Now default.

    (The "Discussions Moderators" group can already do all of these actions in the Forum and Wall namespaces.)

    edit: The group has been renamed "Discussions Moderators" and now has the "commentedit" and "commentdelete" rights. 452, 2015-01-29T14:48:58Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-08-05T01:20:23Z)

    This topic is now completely redundant, as we now no longer have Forums, Walls, or Blogs. -452 15:37, August 21, 2017 (UTC)
  • New Hades Map

    Wikia staff abandoned their Wikia Maps feature some time ago, then completely removed it

    I enabled the new Wikia Maps feature a few months ago, but there hasn't been much activity so far, so I've gone ahead and created a New Hades map.

    User:WildBrick142 and I have been adding pins to the map, but everyone is welcome to help out.

    Please add any and all locations in Saints Row: Gat out of Hell!

    But please be careful, as it's easy to accidentally click delete instead of cancel. Needless to say, anyone who deliberately vandalises the map will be blocked from the wiki.

    The map can be accessed via Special:Maps/7942, or by clicking the map below.

    If you would like to practice and make test edits, please go to instead of using a map here.

    452, 2015-01-23T20:22:09Z (last edited: 452, 2015-05-11T15:32:29Z)

    So I remember them later:
    • Mediawiki:wikia-interactive-maps-poi-categories-default-character
    • Mediawiki:wikia-interactive-maps-poi-categories-default-event
    • Mediawiki:wikia-interactive-maps-poi-categories-default-item
    • Mediawiki:wikia-interactive-maps-poi-categories-default-location
    • Mediawiki:wikia-interactive-maps-poi-categories-default-other
    • Mediawiki:wikia-interactive-maps-poi-categories-default-quest
    452, 2015-01-24T00:07:55Z
    New higher resolution map uploaded to Special:Maps/7942.
    452, 2015-01-27T19:20:54Z
    I grew tired of waiting for others to move the pins from the old map to the new map, so I have now done it myself.
    452, 2015-05-11T15:32:53Z (last edited: 452, 2015-05-11T15:34:18Z)
  • User Groups 2015

    For updated information, see Forum:User Groups 2020


    This has now been done. All "Task Forces" are now "To-do lists", located in Category:To-do.


    The name "Task Forces" was chosen because it was the best we could come up with.

    However, I've since realised that the name "To-do lists" would probably work better.

    I propose that Task Forces be renamed "To-do lists".

    Can anyone think of a reason they shouldn't be renamed, or come up with a better name?


    Category:To-do/Activity "Check the Activity to-do list for ways to improve Activity articles."
    Category:To-do/Audio "Check the Audio to-do list for ways to improve Audio articles."
    Category:To-do/Character "Check the Character to-do list for ways to improve Character articles."
    Category:To-do/Customization "Check the Customization to-do list for ways to improve Customization articles."
    Category:To-do/DLC "Check the DLC to-do list for ways to improve DLC articles."
    Category:To-do/Location "Check the Location to-do list for ways to improve Location articles."
    Category:To-do/Mission "Check the Mission to-do list for ways to improve Mission articles."
    Category:To-do/Multiplayer "Check the Multiplayer to-do list for ways to improve Multiplayer articles."
    Category:To-do/Reward "Check the Reward to-do list for ways to improve Reward articles."
    Category:To-do/UI "Check the UI to-do list for ways to improve UI articles."
    Category:To-do/Vehicle "Check the Vehicle to-do list for ways to improve Vehicle articles."
    Category:To-do/Weapon "Check the Weapon to-do list for ways to improve Weapon articles."

    Historical discussions:

    Although the current date of the post says January, this was originally posted in Sept 2014 under the title "Renaming Task Forces", but was bumped to the top of the recent posts in January so it would get more attention. 452, 2015-01-08T17:29:22Z (last edited: 452, 2016-11-05T22:06:48Z)

    I originally posted this in September and subsequently forgot all about it, but renaming Task Forces as "To-do lists" seems like a pretty good move.
    I'll go ahead with this on Feb 1st unless anyone has any good reasons against it.
    452, 2015-01-08T17:39:57Z (last edited: 452, 2015-01-08T17:40:11Z)
    I like this. I think the wording is more clear in reference to what it means, and "to-do list" just sounds more enticing to complete, since "task-force" sounds like it would be more complicated than what it really is haha., 2015-01-16T03:26:55Z
    Thanks for the feedback!
    452, 2015-01-16T03:30:09Z
    This change will occur in 24 hours unless someone has a better idea.
    452, 2015-01-31T00:07:10Z
    That'd be right about now.
    452, 2015-02-01T00:08:46Z
    Huh, that's weird: (I knew about wikipedia's "Task Forces", but not about this.)
    It took us 2 renames over 4 fucking years to get from "User Groups" to "To-do lists" - but all we had to do was copy wikipedia.
    Still, it's better to have come to the same conclusion organically instead of just copying from somewhere else.
    452, 2016-01-09T13:01:28Z (last edited: 452, 2016-01-09T13:01:46Z)
  • Inter-wikia links

    Required reading: Forum:Always ask questions, Help:Interwiki links.

    Since May, I've been attempting to find out the reasons behind the wide-spread use of using interwiki links to link to other Wikia wikis.

    For the remainder of this post, I will be using the term "interwikia link" to mean "An interwiki link to a Wikia wiki"

    Special:LinkSearch is used to search for external links. Interwiki links do not appear in the list, because they are not registered as being external. This is a known disadvantage listed on Meta:Help:Interwiki_linking

    I have not been able to find any advantages to using interwikia links.

    During my search, I have been called "dumb" for using external links instead of interwiki links, a "fool" for not learning that "I should just do what everyone else does", and had my inquiry thread on Community Central locked for dismissing suggestions were not relevant to my question.

    Most reasons behind using interwiki links are related to non-wikia issues, and using interwikia links is something that appears to have happened due to people starting on wikipedia, or on a wikia wiki which copies the conventions of wikipedia closely.

    I also think part of the reason why many people default to using interwiki links might be that they look similar to internal links, and those are better than external links to the same wiki, so it's ingrained that links starting with "[[" are "better" than links starting with just "[". (The reason behind that is different, and valid.)

    There is nowhere that states any reasons why interwiki links should be preferred, or indeed anywhere that states they're preferred at all. The help pages only state that they exist, without saying why they should be used.

    Don't get me wrong, users of this wiki should know that I love shortcuts - I've made a bunch of templates to save time for myself and others - but the fact that a shortcut exists doesn't automatically mean it should be compulsory to use it, especially if using said "shortcut" would take longer than the alternative with no other benefit. (Obviously if a template has other benefits, such as categorisation or DPL listing, it should be used.)

    When I asked Wikia Staff, their only suggestions were:

    • "Hiding external link icons"
      • I regard this as a disadvantage, as off-wiki links should be clearly marked. If it is necessary to hide external link icons, that can easily be done with CSS.
    • "Shorter wikitext".
      • "This is not necessarily an advantage, it is only a fact: "interwiki links are shorter than external links". While I personally reword things to be concise, I do not do it simply to "save space". This is not a telegram: We are not being charged per letter.

    Other suggestions I have encountered include:

    • Because they exist
      • Drugs exist too, but that is not a reason to do drugs.
    • The personal convenience of typing fewer characters
      • Personal convenience is dependent on whether you're typing or pasting. I personally always paste external links rather than type them. "Personal convenience" for some users is not a reason to require all users to use them.
    • Making Special:LinkSearch shorter by making interwiki links impossible to monitor.
      • The help page, and I, consider this a disadvantage. It's called LinkSearch for a reason: for searching. LinkSearch exists to monitor links, so all links should be able to be monitored.
    • Theoretical portability if a wiki changes address
      • Likely irrelevant to Wikia wikis, as redirects are always left when they are renamed.
    • Theoretical SEO because interwikia links do not have "nofollow" set, but external links do
      • This is completely false. External links to both wikipedia and wikia do not have "nofollow" set.
    • There is a "you are leaving this site" popup for external links, but not interwiki links
      • This is largely false. Some wikis have this, like Memory Alpha, but it is not the default.
    • "Interwikis should be set only for trusted and extensively used sites only."
      • Whether or not the interwiki links point to trusted sites is not relevant.
    • All external links should be in the external links section
      • I'm not even sure what the point of this one was, but it doesn't apply to this wiki.
    • "if it ain't broke don't 'fix' it".
    • "All the cool kids use them"
      • AKA "That's the way things are done around here"
        • Response: "Why is it the way things are done?"
      • AKA "That's the way everyone does it"
        • Response: "Why it is the way everyone does it?"
      • AKA "It's a standard/convention"
        • Response: "Why it is a standard or convention?"
      • AKA "That's how they do it on wikipedia"
        • Response: "What are the reasons wikipedia uses them?"
      • AKA "That's how they do it on the Blakestone Wiki"
        • Response: "What are the reasons Blakestone Wiki uses them?"

    For all of these, I direct you to: Forum:Always ask questions.

    From the outset, I was perfectly well aware that "all the cool kids use them". The question has always been: why?
    Answering the question "Why do all the cool kids use them" with "Because all the cool kids use them" shows that the reason is unknown.

    The entire purpose of asking about the benefit of interwiki links was to examine why this was common on other wikis.

    As you can see, it has not stood up to examination. They may be a good idea on elsewhere, but that does not automatically mean they are a good idea here. Every single reason suggested has little or no bearing here.

    It has been brought up that external links are "longer" than interwikia links, so I have addressed this by creating {{w}}, which is very similar to the existing {{wp}}, which has been in use for some time.

    I propose to change all interwikia links to external links use {{w}}, so that they appear on Special:LinkSearch.

    The policies regarding use and changes will be exactly the same as policies regarding use of templates instead of tags.

    • No-one is required to use {{ref}}, or to change <ref> to {{ref}}.
    • No-one is required to use {{w}}, or to change interwikia links to {{w}}.
    • No-one gets into trouble for using <ref>, but if someone uses it frequently, they are informed that {{ref}} is available.
    • No-one gets into trouble for using interwikia links, but if someone uses it frequently, they are informed that {{w}} should be used instead.
    • If any confused users change {{ref}} to <ref>, they are informed that use of the template is preferred.
    • If any confused users change {{w}} to interwikia links, they are informed that use of the template is preferred.
    • There is absolutely nothing wrong with simply copy/pasting an external link instead of using the template, just as there is nothing wrong with copy/pasting an external link to wikipedia instead of using the wp template, although more experienced users will likely change it to use the template afterwards, just as experienced editors on wikipedia change <ref>s to one of the many references templates in use on wikipedia.

    If no-one can offer any disadvantages of doing this, I will begin mass-changing them on October 1st.

    452 - 2014-09-13 23:32:29

    Theoretical portability if a wiki changes address
    Ha. 452 (talk) 15:05, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Monthly Wiki cursor

    3 months ago, I proposed that the mouse cursor used on the wiki be changed in Top 10 list:Pimp Cane cursor. As there have been more votes for than against, and no vocal opposition, I have now changed it.

    The current cursor is now Pimp Cane - Saints Row 2 icon.png.

    The poll for next month's cursor is at Top 10 list:Next month's mouse cursor.

    • If there is no clear winner of each poll on the 1st of each month, the poll will continue until there is.
    • Anyone may propose cursors.
    • Cursors must be Saints Row-related.
    • Cursors must have a visible "point".
    • Existing images may be rotated to the correct orientation.

    (I will edit this post with updates.)

    If you do not wish to use the custom cursor, you are free to set your own in your personal css:

    • Edit Special:MyPage/common.css
    • To use the default, add: body { cursor: default; }
    • To use an alternate custom custom, add: body { cursor: url( FULL-URL-HERE ), auto; }

    452, 2014-09-08T17:48:09Z (last edited: 452, 2014-09-08T20:49:13Z)

    The custom cursor was disabled due to a user complaint about strange cursor behaviour in ubuntu.
    I plan on testing it in ubuntu and seeing if the issue can be resolved.
    452, 2014-11-08T23:47:59Z
    Ubuntu 10.0 Firefox 45.0.1 has no problem.
    452, 2016-04-07T19:54:07Z (last edited: 452, 2016-04-07T19:54:17Z)
  • Disambiguating titles

    There are many subjects in the Saints Row series which share the same title, so out of necessity, we have pages on the wiki which have notes in the page title to differentiate between them.

    Since the first words of each is "Guardian Angel" is a ...., the displayed title is a little redundant. The second line on both of those pages is a link to the other.

    So, we're doing a trial run of hiding the (Mission) and (Activity) part of the title on these pages, and on all other similar pages.

    I'd like some feedback on whether or not you find it confusing.

    A similar method of changing the title is also being used on all Disambiguation pages.

    Here's the full list:

    452, 2014-04-24T07:45:05Z (last edited: 452, 2016-06-10T23:41:00Z)

    I liked this idea and it doesn't look confusing. We should leave it like that unless someone else finds it confusing. :)
    TheMoonLightman, 2014-04-25T21:15:34Z
    I'm glad that no-one has found this confusing so far.
    452, 2014-09-14T18:20:43Z
  • The new VisualEditor

    Wikia Staff have been developing a new VisualEditor for several months now, and until recently it has been optional feature which the local admins of each wiki could choose whether to enable.

    I approve of the concept in principle, but after testing it, I made the determination that it was not yet mature enough to enable on this wiki. (See below for an explanation.)

    Wikia Staff have now soft-enabled the new VisualEditor on all wikis - you can set it in your preferences, or choose it from the edit drop-down menu. As soon as this happened, I made a test edit - it erased a section. I immediately reported this and asked for the feature to be disabled until it was finished, but it is still enabled. They did not tell me "no", they just thanked me for reporting the bug.

    I do not support the premature activation of this feature, and encourage people to avoid using it. Fortunately, no-one is being forced to use it yet, but eventually, it will replace the current "Visual" editor. Hopefully they will finish testing it by then.

    I will not be doing any further testing of the new VisualEditor. As it is a central Wikia feature, I am required to ensure that the custom site style does not interfere with it, so I have already fixed one display problem. If you notice a problem which you believe is due to the site style, please report it to me and I will fix it, if applicable.

    If you choose to use the new VisualEditor, always preview your changes before submitting them. VisualEditor edits in Special:Recentchanges are marked, I'll be sure to check those especially, and revert any edits which break things.

    The reason why I do not want to adopt this feature prematurely is due to past experiences with enabling optional features.

    I regret enabling Message Wall, because it still has outstanding problems which I reported over 2 years ago. If I had known these bugs were not going to be fixed, I would have disabled it as soon as I discovered the problems. It is still possible to disable it now, but doing so would effectively make the last 2 years of discussions inaccessible. So now, I disable features as soon as bugs are found.

    The new Forum is not used on this wiki for this reason. It has taken Wikia Staff 16 months to fix one of the main issues I had with it, which proves that I made the right decision to disable it, and I will not enable it until the other issues are resolved.

    452 - 2014-04-12 23:19:17

  • Shortening DLC titles

    In March, I posted a poll "Shortening DLC titles", with two options:

    • Use official titles only, no matter how long they are. (37 votes)
    • Shorten "Saints Row 2: Corporate Warfare" to "Corporate Warfare" (And all similar titles) (2 votes)

    Not a single person gave a reason for their vote. One person left a comment "Looks more proffesional." without stating which looks more professional.

    Despite 37 voting for long titles, not a single person renamed "How the Saints Save Christmas" to "Saints Row IV: How the Saints Save Christmas", and every single person linking to it linked to "How the Saints Save Christmas" instead of "Saints Row IV: How the Saints Save Christmas"

    This tells me that, in practice, people either prefer shorter titles, or don't care.

    Therefore, this is an announcement that in one month from now, "Use short forms of DLC titles" will become policy unless people give reasons why it should not.

    452, 2014-08-19T02:43:24Z (last edited: 452, 2014-09-14T18:15:51Z)

    Looks more proffesional.
    Seemorecox, 2014-03-24T22:56:32Z
    What does?
    452, 2014-03-24T22:57:50Z
    I guess "official titles only" wins - this is the most surprising poll result yet.
    452, 2014-06-21T12:38:04Z
    Comments below this one were from the now-redirected poll.
    452, 2014-08-19T02:45:36Z
    It has now been almost 4 months without objection.
    452, 2014-12-07T21:58:54Z
  • User Stars

    You may have noticed that some users have custom icons in their user header. We call these "User Stars", as they started out as "Gold Stars" which were given for outstanding contributions, although now any image on the wiki can be used. A display of all currently defined user stars is available at User:Test.

    If you think that someone's contributions deserve a user star, contact an admin and let them know.

    As an example, here are some reasons user stars have been given in the past:

    • creating an fantastic article in a single edit
    • adding transcripts
    • figuring out how to get 10 Satchel Charges
    • being a great photographer
    • taking a screenshot of one of each vehicle in Saints Row: The Third
    • bringing long-term false information to light
    • adding excellent captions

    452 - 2014-02-21 23:26:22

  • Fluid layout

    As you may have noticed, Wikia rolled out their fluid layout to all wikis today. Now, more horizontal space is utilised by article content, which is a good thing. Now everyone benefits from seeing more of an article without scrolling: people with huge monitors, people with tablets, or just people who like to resize their browser.

    Of course, not everyone is happy about the change, but Wikia have been very working on it very openly for months, and appear to be listening to a lot of feedback. There are bound to be more than a few further improvements, so if you have any ideas, be sure to let them know.

    But if you see any problems specific to the Saints Row Wiki, be sure to let me know. I've only been testing the fluid layout with this wiki's skin for a few weeks, and there were a lot of little tweaks necessary, so I'm sure there's one or two things I missed. (I'm about to fix another after this post.)

    Apart from "there is greater article width", one extra thing you may notice is that there's "less border around the sides". There used to be a small 5px space on each side of the page, so that the article space was slightly less wide that the header bar, but I took a shortcut while updating the style and got rid of it. I didn't think anyone would really notice, but User:OAndersson noticed immediately. If another else misses that gap, let me know. (Bear in mind, the only real way to add the gap back in is to take space away from the article size. I'd rather keep the article width at max.)

    Speaking of giving me feedback, another change that Wikia made was to increase the font size to 14px. I immediately asked Wikia Staff if I could change this back to 13px, and they said it was okay. I already talked to a few of the chat regulars about this, but I'd also like to get the opinion of anyone else who would like to give me their opinion.

    So, I set up these pages and you can see the "before" and "after" yourself:

    Even if you've read the Ben King article before, read through the Font-size 14 example page, add see if you like how it looks with the text a little bigger, then take a look at Font-size 13 example again.
    After taking a look at both of them, go to Top 10 list:Font size and vote. Also, if you've got more to say, leave a comment at the bottom of this post.

    Also, if you'd like to try out the entire wiki at font-size 14, add this to your Special:MyPage/common.css:

    .WikiaArticle {
      font-size: 14px;
      line-height: 22px;

    By the way, if you like the idea of utilising more article space, go to Special:MyPage/common.css and add this:

    .WikiaPage {
      width: 100%;

    That style will make it so the entire width is used, and no background will be visible.

    Speaking of backgrounds, you may have noticed that the "Saints Row The Third city background" is gone, replaced with tiling logos.
    Do you like the tiling background? Do you think there should be some kind of picture background? Would you like to make a background for this wiki? Feel free to whip something up!

    I think the tiled background goes well with the snow in the Wikia header. :)

    452, 2013-12-05T02:45:14Z (last edited: 452, 2014-11-18T02:08:34Z)

    I'm especially interested in hearing if anyone thinks that the 13px font-size is too small, because that's how it has always been, and I'm curious why they hadn't mentioned it earlier.
    I've used a 23in screen at 2048px width for years, so I'm used to having a lot of screen real estate, the the default sizing of many things being fairly small - but that's my choice. Any time I needed text to be larger, I changed the resolution to 1600px, but most of the time I stayed at 2048px.
    One think I can do is to change the CSS so that the font automatically changes to 14px when the width is 1600px or higher - but only if people actually request it.
    452, 2013-12-05T22:24:44Z (last edited: 452, 2013-12-05T22:25:15Z)
    Seriously? ur making a news article about the new layout? jesus the christmas dlc for sr4 came out and u didnt even mention it this is the news section not a forum or something
    Shotgun9009, 2013-12-31T20:50:09Z
    Yes, this is seriously a news post about the new layout, thanks for asking. Are you implying that I shouldn't make a post about new layouts? I've often made posts about layout changes and new features in the past, so why wouldn't I with Fluid?
    this is the news section not a forum or something
    This post was posted under wiki news - the section for news about the wiki. This is where news about the wiki goes. Why would I mention the Christmas DLC here?
    You didn't make a news post about the Christmas DLC either, so take a look in the mirror next time.
    452, 2013-12-31T21:10:25Z (last edited: 452, 2013-12-31T21:10:33Z)
  • On the Wiki links removed

    Oasis users may notice that the "On the Wiki" navbar is slightly less useful today, as the links to "Recent Changes" and "New Pages" have been removed. (Monobook users are not affected by this change, their links are intact.)

    It was not my decision to remove the links, and I'm sorry I could not get them re-added.
    We encourage everybody on the wiki to use both "Recent Changes" and "New Pages" regularly, as these are the most effective ways of monitoring recent additions to the wiki.

    If you would like re-add these links for personal use:

    1. Go here: Special:MyPage/wikia.js
    2. Add this line:

    If you would like to petition Wikia to allow us to add links, please do so via Special:Contact.

    452 - 2013-10-09 21:55:33

  • Templates dropdown

    I've added a new dropdown in the editTools section of the editor which adds a convenient way of adding templates.

    It's mostly finished, but currently in the testing phase.

    If you'd like to help test it, go to Special:MyPage/wikia.js and add: importScript('user:452/customEdittools.js');

    edit: Testing concluded 2013-10-20, and the script was activated wiki-wide.

    Also new recently is the "Help the Wiki" sidebar message.

    Let me know what you think, or how we can improve it.

    452 - 2013-10-06 20:17:44

  • New Wikia rules

    The Wikia Terms of Use have been updated.

    You can see the changes by clicking here.

    452, Why are you posting about Wikia Terms of Use? What does that have to do with the Saints Row Wiki?

    I'm glad you asked! It's news here because several "local rules" are now "global rules".

    Previously, all "Community Guidelines" have been local-policies which all wikis were free to alter. And they were just that "guidelines", but now, they're part of the Wikia Terms of Use, which means that violation of the Community Guidelines can get you globally banned from Wikia.

    Here are some highlights, which were already against the local policies here, and for which I will now be reporting to Wikia Staff, rather than just blocking locally.

    • "It goes without saying that harassment, threats, bullying and intimidation are not okay."
      • The Saints Row Wiki has previously had a policy of year-long blocks for any harassment.
    • "Respect people's privacy"
      • Privacy invasion comes up surprisingly infrequently, but I've always classified it as harassment anyway.
    • "Attribute fairly" - "it's always polite to give the proper attribution."
      • We've had problems now and then with people not attributing content, so it's great that this is stated.
    • "no language or content that disparages others on the basis of their race, gender, sexuality, religion, country of origin and so on."
      • More than "language or content", the policy of this wiki is still "no discrimination of any kind".

    Something surprising:

    • "On most wikis, this includes nudity (including bare breasts and butts). Artistic nudity may be allowed - for example a classical painting, or a small amount of nudity from a game screenshot. "
      • We've previously had in-game images of Shaundi randomly deleted by Wikia Staff, so it's great that that this language specifically allows nudity in game screenshots.

    Something worrying:

    • "Content that describes violent or non-consensual sex is expressly prohibited."
      • I'm worried about the Rectifier, since it's a tool for violent rape, which has already been determined to be against similar laws forbidding such depictions.

    A clarification:

    • "Don't do anything illegal on Wikia, or encourage other people to."
      • While this goes without saying, I've contacted Wikia Staff to ask what discussion is permitted, and they've confirmed that it's perfectly fine for people to admit that they are "pirates" and to discuss things which are possible in "pirated" games, but the line is drawn at encouraging people, or providing instructions.
      • So, the Saints Row Wiki policy remains the same: no links or instructions to break laws or EULAs.

    Summary: The Saints Row Wiki doesn't discriminate. It doesn't matter where you are, what platform you use, or how much you paid for the game. What matters is that you're a good contributor who provides valid information and doesn't discriminate. :)

    452, 2013-09-20T01:11:08Z (last edited: 452, 2014-05-20T18:03:06Z)

    I've just been informally notified that Wikia will allow discrimination against someone who has "green hair": because there are no laws protecting people who have green hair against discrimination.
    The Saints Row Wiki will not allow this, or any other, kind of discrimination.
    The Saints Row Wiki policies are in place because all discrimination is morally wrong, whether or not it is against a law.
    452, 2014-05-20T17:55:10Z
    I've been thinking about this some more recently, and Wikia's position on this is a little worrying.
    By saying that they only care about discrimination towards legally protected classes in the state of California, they are implying that they are only forbidding discrimination against them because it's against the law, and that Wikia Inc and Wikia Staff would be fine with that kind of discrimination if it were not against the law.
    I don't think that's a good position to have, so I want to make this very clear:
    • I do not need a law to tell me the difference between right and wrong.
    • I am anti-discrimination, regardless of what the law says.
    Even if it was not against the law, I would still not allow discrimination on the Saints Row Wiki against people based on their race, gender, sexuality, hair colour, religion, country of origin, what platform you use, how much you paid for the game, and so on.
    452, 2015-01-08T18:08:44Z (last edited: 452, 2016-03-11T16:09:03Z)
    ...wait a minite.
    "On most wikis, this includes nudity (including bare breasts and butts). Artistic nudity may be allowed - for example a classical painting, or a small amount of nudity from a game screenshot. "
    That's been there since 2013, and I complete forgot.
    Apparently so did Wikia Staff, because they still periodically make a big deal out of minor nudity, including repeatedly not understanding that Samantha is wearing pasties and deleting the images - as well as specifically stating that wearing a g-string is fine, and not wearing a g-string is not, despite there being absolutely no difference to the image other than a coloured stripe.
    452 (talk) 19:13, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Gang Task Forces

    This information is outdated, see Forum:User Groups 2015

    As per the User Groups 2013 post, User Groups have been renamed to Task Forces, and re-structured.

    In addition to the focus-related groups found at Category:Task Force, there are also gang-related groups which can be found at Category:Task Force/Gang.

    These focus of these task forces are anything to do with the gang - mostly characters and missions, but also peripheral topics such as which vehicles and weapons the gangs use.
    As there is much overlap, Category:Task Force/Character should also be checked for issues and discussions which may be relevant.
    • If you want to co-ordinate improving all Character articles, use the Character Task Force.
    • If you just want to co-ordinate Vice Kings related articles, use the Vice Kings Task Force.

    You don't have to "join" any of the Task Force groups, you can feel free to post discussion topics to each group if you have something to add.

    As usual, these groups are an experiment, if they work, they work. If no-one uses them, they'll be deleted in a year from now.

    Edit: 2014-09-15: These gang task forces have now been deleted due to apparent lack of use. While it is possible that people may have viewed them, no-one posted anything in them, meaning that this was the only post displayed in them, and no-one has commented on their usefulness, nor objected to their pre-proposed deletion.

    452, 2013-07-15T23:11:47Z (last edited: 452, 2015-02-01T04:20:51Z)

    I was going to propose their deletion today, but since I already proposed their deletion 14 months in advance, I guess I don't have to propose it again.
    Thanks, past me!
    452, 2014-09-14T17:32:50Z
  • Portals

    We now have Portal pages for each major game in the series, containing links to every article related to each game.

    We've had a well-designed category system for some time, but the only problem is that Category:Games only links to the "in Saints Row X" pages, so you can't get to the Fine Aim article starting from Category:Saints Row 2.
    The new Portal pages solve that problem, so it's easy to see which articles related to each game.

    They're still being improved, one concern is that they're currently a little plain, I've tried adding more columns to Portal:Saints Row to fill the some the blank space, and Moozipan Cheese has suggested adding images.

    What do you think?

    If you'd like to redesign one of the Portal pages, feel free to create a draft page, like Portal:Saints_Row/draft7, and do whatever you like.

    You don't need to keep the current columns, but please keep each major section intact.

    If you have ideas, but don't know how to implement them, feel free to ask for help!

    452 - 2013-05-29 01:03:56

  • Site style

    As you can see, or will see as soon as your browser cache updates, I've updated the site style with a little more pizzazz.

    I'd like some general feedback, do you like it, was it better the old way, have I completely wasted my time, did you even notice the difference?

    If something doesn't look right, please let me know. Here, in the comments section of this post.
    I've been testing it over the past few weeks and haven't run into any issues personally, but if you're finding something difficult to read, or just think something looks out of place, please leave a comment with your browser version and I'll look into it. (A screenshot of the problem would definitely help me understand and fix any issues you may have.)

    Additionally, if you see anything which you think looks a little plain and I've forgotten to style, please let me know, and also feel free to make any additional suggestions of any way you think the general look can be improved

    I've also updated the monobook style a little.

    If any monobook users would like to further tweak the CSS, you can use your Special:Mypage/common.css to draft something, and I will add it to the site CSS.

    If anyone who uses the site with a mobile device notices any problems, you should also let me know.

    If anyone using the Game Guides app would like to update the categories or images, I'd be happy to give you access to Special:GameGuidesContent so you can work on it.

    For those new to the wiki and wondering what it would look like without the custom stylesheet:

    You can click Toggle CSS to toggle the site style on and off. (This change is not permanent and will only affect this page.)

    If you would like to try this on other pages, go to Special:MyPage/wikia.js or Special:MyPage/monobook.js and add this:

    $("#WikiaMainContent").prepend("<a href='javascript:toggleCSS()'>Toggle CSS</a>");

    This will add a "Toggle CSS" link to the top of every page. 452, 2013-04-09T15:51:25Z (last edited: 452, 2015-09-18T18:52:23Z)

    It is a lot more pleasant for my eyes now ! The skin of this Wiki used to be too much bright...
    I like it that way, thanks !
    Erewon, 2013-04-16T20:13:57Z
    Thanks for the feedback. :)
    452, 2013-04-16T21:02:02Z
    looks good and i'm personally grateful for the monobook update, some wiki's monobook layouts are out dated/disorganised since the new wikia look(not a fan) came out.
    Soul reaper magnum, 2013-04-27T18:45:26Z
    If you notice any display problems with monobook that you'd like fixed, be sure to let me know!
    If you like, you can edit your own Special:MyPage/monobook.css and play around with different styles, then let me know and I'll copy them over to be side-wide.
    edit: You've probably also noticed I've updated the monobook sidebar menus - if there's any other links you think should be added, please let me know.
    452, 2013-04-27T19:15:52Z (last edited: 452, 2013-04-27T19:17:36Z)
    Oops, yesterday's style updates broke monobook a little. Nothing major, just a few things are plainer than they should be. I really wish the classes were the same for both!
    452, 2013-05-17T17:02:12Z
    Ok, fixed. Probably a little better than it was to begin with, although there are a couple of things which still needed to be updated at some point
    452, 2013-05-17T18:23:58Z
    Just a minor issue but on a mobile device (specifically iPhone) the front page looks odd.
    Iphone front page landscape 2 column issue.png
    Iphone front page landscape column issue.png
    Iphone front page two column issue.png
    Iphone front page column issue.png
    On an iPad it's not as tightly packed as on an iPhone. No idea if you're going to work on a mobile layout or not but it'd be nice since I'll be able to update from E3 then.
    Zadidoll, 2013-05-28T18:09:42Z (last edited: 452, 2016-06-13T11:27:07Z)
    Thanks, I have noticed that problem while looking at
    I'm not sure what the best way to fix it is. The main problem is that I don't have direct control over the mobile layout, as the mobile layout pretty much ignores most of the styling I can do.
    I've just made a few changes, how does it look now?
    452, 2013-05-28T18:17:42Z (last edited: 452, 2013-05-28T18:18:27Z)
    Looks pretty much the same only now I have to scroll to the right to read things since it's not wrapping. Wikia really needs to allow admins to have access to the mobile layout since their default or whatever it is simply is not compatible with all mobile devices.
    Zadidoll, 2013-05-28T18:25:58Z
    Good news, take a look at the mobile site now. :)
    How it currently looks is what happens if I just apply the entire site style to the mobile skin. some parts work, others don't, so it pretty much needs to be worked on from scratch.
    Once you've had a look, I'm going to remove most of the styling. I can fix the main page, but I'm going to leave the rest unstyled unless there's anything else which you would specifically like fixed.
    (If anyone has with some CSS experience, with a mobile device, and more interest in fixing the skin would like to work on it, let me know.)
    452, 2013-05-28T18:48:02Z (last edited: 452, 2013-05-28T19:01:20Z)
    over to the right side of the page the boxs for navigation,contributing,etc. have a purple box outline infront of them.
    Soul reaper magnum, 2013-06-06T18:13:15Z
    I'm not seeing any problems, what browser are you using, and can you take a screenshot?
    452, 2013-06-06T18:22:07Z (last edited: 452, 2013-06-06T18:22:36Z)
    i'm using internet explorer, and how do i take a sreenshot? i'v only done it once before and i can't remember how.
    Soul reaper magnum, 2013-06-07T22:16:26Z
    Press the "Prt Sc" (Print Screen) button on your keyboard. This copies a screenshot to the clipboard, then paste it into an image editing program. Mspaint will do.
    Which version? I tested with IE8 yesterday, and didn't see a problem.
    You should really try out either Google Chrome or Mozilla Firefox - the site looks much better with those browsers. (And probably in Opera and Safari too, although I haven't tested using them in a while.)
    452, 2013-06-07T23:21:32Z and i use internet explorer 9
    Soul reaper magnum, 2013-06-08T03:15:27Z
    It's definitely not supposed to look like that, thanks for letting me know. I'll install IE9 on my win7 computer and do some testing.
    Do the input boxes on this page look okay? The use a very similar style.
    edit: Since I know the cause, I'll remove it for now until I do some testing.
    452, 2013-06-08T04:06:29Z (last edited: 452, 2013-06-08T04:08:24Z)
    I haven't installed IE9, but I've made some changes which should have fixed the problem.
    452, 2013-06-08T04:47:57Z
    yep, it's fixed
    Soul reaper magnum, 2013-06-08T06:05:05Z
    Excellent - thanks for letting me know! (About the problem itself, and that it's fixed.)
    452, 2013-06-08T06:09:31Z (last edited: 452, 2013-06-08T06:09:48Z)
    got a new problem i'm guessing the nav boxes arn't supossed to look like that?
    Soul reaper magnum, 2013-06-14T07:00:02Z
    Cheers - I should have seen that one myself.
    It should be fixed now.
    452, 2013-06-14T09:00:08Z
    it's good
    Soul reaper magnum, 2013-06-20T14:12:43Z
    Excellent, thanks for the update!
    452, 2013-06-20T18:18:18Z
    I've been making a few other incremental improvements recently, some extra shadows and such, and today I've added underlines to lesser section headings to help them stand out a little better.
    I wish I'd thought of that 2 years ago - I wish I'd bothered to work on the CSS this extensively 2 years ago as well, because it's really looking a lot better.
    There's basically 2 main things that individual wikis are not allowed to change:
    • You can't hide or obscure the ads.
    • You can't hide anything that's there by default.
      • We have a policy that pages should only be created if they're linked, so it makes sense to hide the "create a new page" because people should only be creating pages by clicking links, but that isn't allowed.
      • You also can't resize the content area to take up the empty space - because that's for the ads.
    A member of Wikia Staff dropped by to fix a style that was inadvertently blocking display of an advertisement. I take this as a sign that all of the rest of the recent customisations are fine. I've actually been dreading a Staff member visiting and telling us that something or other wasn't allowed.
    If anyone has any suggestions about other minor improvements to the style, leave me a message, because you might think of a great idea.
    And as always, if something looks weird - please let me know!
    452, 2013-06-20T18:28:25Z
    Monobook background now stretches when using a high resolution - instead of becoming tiny in the background.
    452, 2013-07-31T14:23:14Z
  • User Groups 2013

    For updated information, see Forum:User Groups 2015

    Requesting feedback, please respond, or take the poll: Top 10 list:Name for editing groups

    Since the old User Group pages are confusing, I've decided to overhaul them again to make them much more useful, and integrated with the new user infobox.

    In case you haven't noticed, everyone now has a shiny new blank user infobox on your user page, feel free to fill it out at your leisure. When you fill it out, you will automatically be added to the Project Task Forces relevant to your indicated interests.

    Our old User Group page is Saints Row Wiki:User Groups, and there is some historical discussion on Saints Row Wiki talk:User Groups.

    That User Groups page on this wiki has been here for a long time, and has had a lot of changes. It started out in 2009 as a place for people to just say "I want to be in the Los Brothers of Oiran gang!" and didn't actually have a purpose.

    It was re-purposed over a year ago, because User Groups (AKA Projects, or Task Forces) on wikis are usually dedicated to editing and maintaining specific sections of the wiki, such as focusing on all store articles to ensure all purchasable items are listed, or ensuring all related articles have a common layout.

    User:Moozipan Cheese is a one-man mission User Group, having completely overhauled all mission pages for both Saints Row and Saints Row 2, with very little help. Obviously others had previously contributed to those pages, and he kept some of the previous content, but I don't think there's a single paragraph on any mission page which he didn't at least re-arrange.
    When he was just starting, he posted a mission layout guide, so that others could help, but he ended up doing it all himself.

    I haven't really been using the user-groups page, as I wanted people to form their own groups and manage themselves, but I realise that I probably should have posted about my own weapons infobox project on the weapons user group page, amongst other things I've mostly been doing by myself.

    The new user groups can be found under Category:Task Force (now Category:to-do)

    As well as linking the new {{user}} to the user groups, I have also updated all the items on the To-do list with a template, with a parameter indicating the related project, so that the To-do list items are also listed on Project pages. This is dynamic, whenever an item is added to the to-do list, it is automatically listed on each project page.

    All of this has now been implemented, but I'd like some feedback.

    I've been checking other wikis for some ideas of how other people do things, but haven't found any good, active, examples.

    1. What should we call them?
    User Groups, User groups, usergroups, Projects, Task Forces, or something else? Different wikis use different names, but if we're going to do a overhaul anyway, we may as well consider renaming them "Projects" as a fresh start.
    2. Names of each group
    Do you agree that it's a better idea to name the groups after the focus? "User Group/Vice Kings" v "User Group/Missions". I kept the gang name as that was how it was originally, but I think it would be better use the "User Group/Missions" format. After all, you can still specify your favorite gang in your user infobox.
    3. Do you like how it's easier to join a group, just by filling out the user infobox?
    4. What do you want from user groups?
    5. I'd also like general feedback on the new user group pages.

    452, 2013-03-22T21:40:19Z (last edited: 452, 2016-05-01T13:56:22Z)

    I've created Category:Task Force (edit: Now Category:to-do), and modified the user infobox to automatically add the related user group according to interests listed.
    There is also a corresponding user group subpage for each new usergroup, but at the moment these are only linked from each category.
    I'm thinking that there's really no point in the multiple subpages. Instead, the category pages can be used, and topics related to each user group can be posted as forum posts, with the relevant category added.
    This makes it easier for anyone to start a discussion related to a user group.
    I'll also create a simple template to add each category to a forum post.

    I have not yet added a list of articles to each usergroup, I'll do that soon - via the header.
    452, 2013-03-30T20:12:27Z (last edited: 452, 2015-02-12T16:00:10Z)
    To-do changes:
    • The to-do list now uses the {{to-do}} template, which takes a project focus as a parameter and allows automatic listing on each project page.
    See Category:To-do/Location for examples.
    452, 2013-03-30T20:14:49Z (last edited: 452, 2015-02-01T03:45:09Z)
    Also, I need to add at least one contrived to-do item for each group, so no-one can say "well, there's nothing to-do".
    452, 2013-03-30T20:16:04Z
    I'm also going to add an automatic list of relevant pages marked with cleanup, stub and fact tags.
    This will be added via the header, using the same list of categories as the automatic article list.
    452, 2013-03-30T20:21:04Z
    Yes, I really like the idea of the user groups being categories, and topics being forum posts.
    It lends itself very nicely to keeping things organised and easy to access. Instead of a template, there should just be a preload for each user group - and a "create new discussion for this usergroup" box on the user group page.
    Does it need a heading? Or just a category? Definitely a heading, so that people stumbling onto the forum post through the forum listing know what it is.
    "This is a discussion page for the Weapons Project user group, see link for more information about the Weapons Project."
    452, 2013-04-02T01:26:58Z
    I need to hardcode all lists into the header. There's no other way around it that I can see. There's no shortcuts to tell DPL "get all of these categories" except by hardcoding... or doing a double dpl call. Maybe. I guess I'll try that.
    edit: nvm, calling dpl as a parser function allows translcuding a template as any parameter, doing exactly what I need.
    452, 2013-04-02T01:55:12Z
    Working wonderfully.
    452, 2013-04-02T03:51:25Z
    Done, there is at least one post and one to-do list item for each project.
    While categorising posts, i found an old to-do list in one of them which I have now added to the to-do list.
    I'm also going to go back through my old "My edits" page and add those items.
    edit: I was about to go do this, then realised I had already done it. Kind of like some of the things on the to-do list.
    452, 2013-04-05T14:33:51Z
    Done and done.
    Currently, every single idea has been implemented, so I've updated the post accordingly.
    I'm not sure what else... Rated articles? Adding a list of articles which have been rated, as well as articles which have not been rated - along with articles which have been requested to be rated.
    I see no reason not to continue to push the article rating system. We can even add a list of "rated articles by project" - the mission articles would be a clear winner, of course.
    452, 2013-04-05T14:36:30Z
    I've also updated the shortest, oldest, and fewest revision templates so that they can return articles from certain characters, and added these to the user groups.
    edit: done.
    452, 2013-04-05T15:08:23Z (last edited: 452, 2013-06-05T21:18:13Z)
    1. I'm fine with how it's named at the moment, but I'm not sure on the capitalisation. I'm cool with it being changed if you feel it should.
    2. Perhaps "Gang name (focus)" or "Focus (gang name)"?
    3. I do, but then we end up with inactive users in them. We should probably remove them after being inactive for a certain amount of time.
    4. *Shrugs* I kind of like how they are; they're there if you want to join them but you don't have to if you don't want to. If we had a larger community we could probably do a lot more with them.
    Moozipan Cheese, 2013-04-06T13:08:22Z
    The problem of inactive users is definitely still a concern, especially since there's no easily automated way for me to drop inactive users. (Not that there is currently, either)
    But I'm fine with risking having to remove a few more inactive users if it means we get a few more people contributing.

    I just had an epiphany regarding the user group names.
    One problem has always been that, apart from game-related branding, there's never been any real reason for the gang names. For instance, the title "Vice Kings" really has nothing to do with editing mission articles.
    Perhaps what we need to do is keep all of them, new and old, but re-purpose the old ones to be more relevant to their titles.
    The Vice Kings usergroup would be dedicated to editing articles about the Vice Kings - Characters, Missions, and adding info about gang vehicles and weapons used by the gang members, stuff like that.
    It seems likely that people who "like the Vice Kings" would want to focus on editing articles about the Vice Kings.
    The only trouble with this idea is that it's not exactly supported by the new userbox parameters, nor easily integrated with the new user group template. So people would still be part of the Characters group, but the Vice Kings group would be moved to User_Groups/Gang/Vice_Kings and people would have to "join" it manually.
    452, 2013-04-06T14:35:33Z (last edited: 452, 2013-07-13T22:04:55Z)
    Re: User Groups or Usergroups
    It seems the standard is to name them "Usergroups" as one word.
    These are the examples I could find.
    Although I normally don't use what other wikis do as a guideline, in this case, I have looked at a variety of other wikis to see if they had any other usergroup ideas which help here.
    452, 2013-04-06T14:57:07Z
    Hmmm, I had forgotten about the rated articles list already.
    It can be done easily. The trouble is that there isn't a rated article for each category. So the first thing I need to do is rate a few articles.
    452, 2013-04-27T00:46:22Z
    Hmm, I never did do that rated article list.
    But I think I'll merge it with the basic list of articles, no point in having separate lists, when "all" articles should eventually be rated.
    I'm not sure what happens if you attempt to do a labelled section transclusion on an article without a labelled section - I guess i'm going to find out soon.
    452, 2013-06-04T00:34:26Z (last edited: 452, 2013-06-04T00:35:13Z)
    I should probably do something about that epiphany.
    edit: I'll need to create a separate user groups header, because the normal User Group header template won't work.
    • To-do list - will have to be cut
    • Project topics - can stay, but will be empty.
    • Discussions - can stay, but will be empty.
    • Requests can stay - will have entries
    The main thing I need to do first is create gang entries on {{Project_categories}}
    452, 2013-06-04T00:35:39Z (last edited: 452, 2013-07-13T22:17:21Z)
    Which means I will at least have to rename them, and since I have to rename them anyway, I'd rather just switch the name to something else entirely.
    I quite like "Task forces"
    "I'm part of the Mission task force" sounds better than "I'm part of the Mission user group", or "I'm part of the Mission project"
    edit: Since it doesn't really matter either way, and this post hasn't really gotten much attention, I've created a poll to decide: Top 10 list:Name for editing groups
    452, 2013-06-05T21:28:33Z (last edited: 452, 2013-06-05T21:37:31Z)
    Finally done as a separate list, I'm not sure what I was thinking a month ago, because the rating section isn't done using LST - only the featured summary is. So it was much easier than I thought.
    452, 2013-07-13T20:19:07Z
    I've been thinking more about this, and there's a slight problem of duplicate scope.
    It's possible to do most of what I've proposed, but it's really not very useful. Particularly since no-one has ever actually said "I'm only interested in editing articles about Los Carnales", while there has definitely been people who have only been interested in weapons, vehicles and missions.
    So, I'm not going to do the same kind of automatic lists for gang-specific user groups. Manual lists will have to do. I will add the post list, so that creating discussions is easy.
    Correction: It wasn't as difficult as I was thinking, so there are automatic lists, the same as all other Task Forces, with the exception of To-do list entries, and the Relevant Discussions section. However, many gang-specific Task Forces have blank sections.
    The hardest part is making project blogs possible for them, but since it's the easiest way to encourage discussions, I'm going to do it.
    Since there isn't a "Category:User_Groups/Gang", I'm going to use that as the hub page for the gang-specific user-groups.
    These gang-specific user groups will be given 1 more year, and if they're not used, they can be deleted.
    452, 2013-07-13T22:04:17Z (last edited: 452, 2013-07-14T00:48:46Z)
    I hit a roadblock - it's not currently possible to move pages into the Category namespace, so I'm going to wait to hear from Wikia Staff if that restriction can be removed.
    It's also not possible to move category pages, but I've been doing it manually (copy/paste) - and if they do remove the restriction, then that would have saved me a lot of time.
    452, 2013-07-13T23:00:55Z
  • Spoilers and references

    Again: Spoilers are fine, but must be properly referenced, and located in the appropriate section of relevant articles.

    The events of missions should first be added to mission articles. Feel free to create them if they do not exist.

    Do not add mission events to character articles if the mission article does not exist, and do not add the entire walkthrough of the mission to a character article in lieu of creating the mission article itself.

    Here's a reminder summary of the Saints Row Wiki's policies regarding information about upcoming games, spoilers, and speculation.

    This is a follow up to Forum:Upcoming games


    Saying "No Spoilers" on a site which claims to be "The most comprehensive Saints Row information archive" would be ridiculous.

    "Spoilers alerts" have no place here. This wiki should contains all information, therefore it should be assumed that it contains spoilers.

    The only policy we have regarding spoilers is that spoilers only be posted in relevant places.

    Adding info about Johnny Gat's death to the Forklift article is wrong, but there's no problem with that information being added to any articles directly related to it, such as the Johnny Gat and I'm Free - Free Falling.
    Essentially, someone looking for information about Saints Row should be able to safely browse the site without learning about the events of Saints Row 2.
    Those people should be able to read the Saints Row sections of the Johnny Gat and never learn his fate. If they choose to read the Saints Row: The Third article, that is their own choice.

    (Fun fact: This policy is largely in response to places like Lostpedia, who think it's fine to mention the events of later episodes in articles.)


    Speculation is pointless. Plain and simple. There's plenty actual information which still needs to be added to this wiki, so why add maybes? It's not going to change anything, and you won't get any points for guessing correctly.

    Rumours are equally pointless most of the time. If a developer hints about something on twitter, then simply state that he said it on twitter (with a link), don't speculate about what it may or may not mean. (After it's known, that's a different matter)

    If something is unknown, such as "Is it unknown whether Dex appears in Saints Row IV", you do not need to add it to an article. The fact that Dex isn't mentioned in the Saints Row IV article is good enough.
    In some cases, such as the Kia article, the correct way to state "her fate is unknown" is to say that "what happened to Kia at the end of Three Way was not shown, and she did not appear in the following mission". Speculating that he may or may not have died is not necessary.


    After a game is released, anyone can play it and verify random facts, so citations aren't needed for many things. Right now, the only source of information is websites, trailers and images. Therefore any, and all, information added about Saints Row IV should be accompanied with a link to the source of the information, and an image if the source of information is an image or video.

    Simply saying "X was shown in an image/video" is not good enough.
    Linking to the source allows anyone on the wiki to verify the information, and ensure it isn't something that someone has made up.

    Due to a history of false information being added, and the ease at which someone can just add false information to the wiki, anything regarding Saints Row IV which does not have a reference will be immediately removed.

    Most times when people are adding information, they have the source of the information open in another tab, so link to it.
    Very specifically:
    • The sentence "X is seen in the Y trailer" should be accompanied with a screenshot of the Y trailer, clearly showing X".
    • The sentence "LameGameReporter said that blah blah blah" should be accompanied with a link to the where they said that.
    We all get things wrong sometimes. Yesterday, I added that the Atlasbreaker appeared in the teaser video, but when I went to make a screenshot to upload, I realised that it wasn't actually the Atlasbreaker, it was a new monster truck. This is why screenshots should always be added as proof.

    Official sources[]

    Use the original, official, sources of information.

    If your mother tells you she heard a rumour that LameGameReporter posted how they heard from a random guy at Comic Con that there was an official announcement, do not credit the your mother for telling you. Find the original announcement.

    If there is a Press Release, link to the official Press Release, or at the very least a verbatim quote of the offical Press Release, not some site which has cut it up. If LameGameReporter discusses a video they've rehosted and stuck their logo on, find the original source of the video. The same goes with images. Do not upload images with watermarks. Use Google Image Search to find a clean alternative.

    Game news sites which post news as if it is exclusive they got direct from the developers are scum sucking plagiarists.
    If you use a Game news site which does not cite the source of their information, you should find a better site.
    Game news sites which add their own logo to promotional images are committing copyright infringement - they don't own the images, and have no right to slap their logo on it.


    Use descriptive filenames. To put it in other words: describe the picture in the filename.

    To use an actual example added today:

    A file named "1.png" was uploaded, and added to an article with the caption: "The Protagonist in Saints Row IV"
    A bunch better filename would be "The Protagonist in Saints Row IV.png"
    Obviously there may be multiple files uploaded with that subject, so "The Protagonist in Saints Row IV 12345.png" is quite acceptable, but filenames should always at the very least contain the name of the article they are for, if not a full description of the picture.

    End Notes[]

    Before Saints Row: The Third was released, we had a much more relaxed policy. All we did was tag new information with {{ref?}}, and hoped that someone would add the source later.

    That did not work. There are still many pre-release facts about SRTT which do not have sources. Every now and then, I notice something false that added pre-release that no-one ever removed.

    This time, let's make sure that doesn't happen.

    Additionally, we're always looking for new admins, I'd definitely like to add at least two before August. Anyone who make things easier for existing admins by adding references, removing unsourced facts and speculation, and using descriptive filenames will be considered - there's no application process, just be a great contributor and I will notice. :)

    And when new information is released, anyone is welcome to make a post and add it to Category:Game News.

    452, 2013-08-18T23:02:01Z (edited: 452, 2015-05-05T12:11:31Z)


    Any questions or comments about any policies are very welcome.
    I'd be happy to explain anything in more detail, or to give more specific examples about why things are done this way.
    452, 2013-03-16T20:34:40Z
    How do you add the sources so that when you hover above them, it shows some text? 
    The Supreme Diamond-Hooded Eagle, 2013-03-17T08:20:05Z
    All references do that, when the references section isn't currently visible.
    So for a short article, you won't see the pop-up.
    452, 2013-03-17T13:23:27Z
    Currently, Characters in Saints Row IV is a really good example how how a pre-release article should look, while Weapons in Saints Row IV is a really good example of how a pre-release article should definitely not look.
    edit: this is outdated, I personally overhauled Weapons in Saints Row IV and added images for all weapons.
    452, 2013-06-16T12:54:02Z
    While reading some articles about Saints Row IV, I've noticed a couple of sites contain false information, because they're misinterpreting what has been shown in trailers.
    This is a good reason why these "game news" sites should not be used as a reference if they're just talking about an official trailer.
    One thing that almost every site is repeating is that you start the game as the President.
    Bullshit. You become the President after the first mission.
    • In Saints Row, the player character begins the game as a non-affiliated civilian, who joins the Saints in the first mission.
    • In Saints Row 2, the player character begins the game in jail in a coma, with the Saints disbanded, waking up and escaping in the first mission. The player character can't really be said to be "the leader of the Saints" until after the fourth mission - because until then there are only two people in the gang.
    • In Saints Row: The Third, the player character begins the game as a celebrity, robbing a bank in Stilwater in the first mission and being taken to Steelport in the second mission, with the third mission taking place in Steelport.
    • In Saints Row IV, it is currently unknown how the player character begins the game - but it has been repeatedly stated that the first mission will explain they become the President.
    • In Saints Row IV, the player character begins the game as a celebrity, who is involved in an anti-terrorism operation, which is first mission of the game. The next mission is set 5 years later, after the character has been elected president.
    452, 2013-06-20T19:07:46Z (last edited: 452, 2015-01-08T18:19:16Z)
    Didn't help how I was looking at information on Viola and the ending of the fourth game was spoiled in one sentence as I was scrolling down. Whoever wrote that is an asshole so thanks for spoiling the ending., 2013-08-26T18:32:13Z
    And when I say one sentence I mean it was just on its own. Take a look for yourself. Pretty mad here., 2013-08-26T18:33:54Z
    Well, it is in the Saints Row IV section, so there's not really much we can do about it, unfortunately.
    That's not the ending.
    452, 2013-08-26T19:02:02Z
    That's not the ending.
    Moozipan Cheese, 2013-08-26T19:02:18Z
    I mean it does sound like an ending, if it isn't then well sorry I guess., 2013-08-26T19:11:30Z
    I mean it does sound like an ending, if it isn't then well sorry I guess., 2013-08-26T19:14:25Z
  • Unregistered user label

    Let's vote on changing the unregistered user label: "A Wikia contributor"

    Anyone can edit the Saints Row Wiki, including random passers-by without an account.

    While most people make an account if they're going to be regular contributors, there have been a few long-term unregistered users who have made meaningful contributions - Although it's much harder to "recognise" a user by their IP address alone.

    Some people don't realise that "A Wikia contributor" is the default name shown for any unregistered user. That text is stored at MediaWiki:Oasis-anon-user, which means that it can be changed.

    I think it should be changed, to make it clearer that it is not a username.

    Do you have any good names in mind?

    Post your suggestions below.
    • One suggestion per post.
    • If you agree with a name, reply to that comment saying it.
    • Anyone can vote, including unregistered users :)

    452, 2013-03-08T18:43:58Z (last edited: 452, 2013-03-08T19:15:32Z)

    452, 2013-03-08T18:44:07Z
    Unnamed Protagonist
    452, 2013-03-08T18:44:47Z
    Unknown Saint, 2013-03-09T21:44:34Z
    That's a good one!
    452, 2013-03-09T22:27:49Z
    Unknown Homie
    Captain Treklin, 2013-03-20T13:26:20Z
    Or... we can just remove it altogether and show the IP.
    452, 2013-04-02T22:53:54Z
    Let's try this out...
    452, 2013-04-27T21:21:15Z
  • New forums!

    Update: New forums have now been disabled. Comments have been enabled for the existing Forum.

    Read below for details.

    I'm excited about the prospect of new forums, since the old ones were confusing and sloppy at best.

    They're probably going to become mandatory at some point in the future, so we might as well adopt them early. 452, 2012-11-29T22:48:40Z
    (last edited: 452, 2013-03-10T19:29:21Z)

    What are "topics" and how do they work?
    Edit: the answer is in the FAQ!
    "Topic" means "Related Article"
    452, 2012-11-29T22:49:30Z
    (last edited: 452, 2012-11-30T02:01:44Z)
    I genuinely like how there's a button linking to the forums at the bottom of each article now.
    Moozipan Cheese, 2012-12-01T01:29:23Z
    I expect that that means these forums will eventually replace talk pages (and article comments, which already replace talk pages)
    Feel free to add an article as a topic so you can see how it looks at the bottom of articles.
    452, 2012-12-01T01:46:06Z
    (last edited: 452, 2012-12-01T01:46:55Z)
    And should I take it as read that you agree with keeping the new forums enabled?
    452, 2012-12-01T15:39:43Z
    Yes, absolutely!
    Moozipan Cheese, 2012-12-06T21:30:34Z
    As you might have guessed from Forum:DPL comment test, I'm looking for an alternate solution due to all the problems with the new forum.
    At this point I'd like to disable the new forums, mostly because it's impossible to move pages into the new forum and impossible to redirect to posts in the new forum (Special:BrokenRedirects). Wikia Staff have also shown no interest in my request for a way to manually move pages from the old forum into the new one.  (Unlike Blog posts, which are just normal pages, moving pages to the Board_Forum namespace doesn't work.  Check out Special:Log/move since the 30th for all my attempts.)
    Anyway, after working on Forum:DPL comment test for a few hundred edits, I've found out that the Article Comments feature can be enabled for namespaces other than Main, so all along we could have had it enabled for the Forum namespace! It didn't even occur to me until now to ask about it...
    I'm double checking that it's actually possible to have it enabled for Forum but not Main, and then I'm going to ask them to do that here.
    In the long term, Wikia may make the new forum mandatory, but hopefully they'll finish it by then.
    But if you're already attached to the new forum, we can keep it enabled if you want.
    See here for pages upon pages detailing the problems, and let me know what you think.
    edit: Also why I want to turn it off so soon as I main a huge mistake enabling Message Wall so soon, and it was months before I realised that Wikia wasn't interested in fixing all the problems I was reporting in a timely manner. Things I brought up in January still haven't been fixed (See Special:WantedPages for an extant example.)
    By the time I realised we'd be better off without Message Wall, there were far too many conversations to make disappear, so I don't want to make the same mistake with the forum and in 2 months have a bunch of new forum posts with all the day 1 problems still occurring.
    452, 2012-12-06T21:47:36Z
    (last edited: 452, 2016-11-03T19:54:46Z)
    I've heard back, it is possible to have it enabled for the Forum namespace but not Main, and they are willing to do it. (Although they did ask why I didn't just use the new forum, which I explained at length.)
    452, 2012-12-07T17:45:31Z
    (last edited: 452, 2012-12-07T18:11:58Z)
    I was unaware it had these problems. I wouldn't say I'm particularly attached to the forums - I think they're a nice idea but if you think they should be removed until Wikia hopefully fixes them (or makes them mandatory) then I'm okay with that.
    Moozipan Cheese, 2012-12-08T00:19:52Z
    What do you think about Forum:DPL comment test?
    How it works is... well, applied magic using DPL. Comments are created as subpages, and are subpages are automatically transcluded. (I need to do a little more work to make it easier to use, but it's functional right now)
    The only difficulty I ran into was that I cannot do "replies to comments" that message walls and blog posts have - but I only just noticed that these forums only have a single level of replies anyway, so it doesn't really matter.
    At this point, I think that my forum solution works even better than enabling article comments on the forum namespace.
    The biggest downside that it has is that because they're new subpages - you don't get notifications. Luckily, I've already thought of a solution: When you follow categories, you get notified when new pages are added, so if I automatically add a category (Likely "Category:Forum comment") then following that category will send a notification when a reply is added - of course, it's not as specific as the current notifications.
    Again, I'm going to leave it up to you. I don't really care about specific notifications myself, I think a notification email that there is a new comment should be enough.
    452, 2012-12-08T01:15:52Z
    (last edited: 452, 2014-12-18T17:29:20Z)
    Oh, and if you really like the "Related discussions" module - we can implement that manually.  I can make a pair special template for related discussions that we can use to recreate the same thing.
    • One template to go into forum posts, which has an article name as a parameter
    • One template to put at the bottom of an article - which automatically lists forum posts referencing it using the other template.
    Again, the technical details are magic via DPL, but the result is a list of "Related discussions" shown at the bottom of articles.
    We can use the same thing to highlight active talk page discussions at the bottom of articles as well - which I think may be more useful than Category:Active Discussions, since I don't think many people are using it.
    452, 2012-12-08T01:23:42Z
    (last edited: 452, 2012-12-08T01:26:30Z)
    Dammit, my latest comment disappeared.
    Short version: I tested Article Comments in the Forum namespace, and it works as expected, including the ability to move Forum posts with comments to the User_blog namespace, and have comments intact.
    This means if we enable Article Comments for the old forum now, if they make the new forum mandatory later, we can just move the old forum posts to the user_blog namespace. 
    While my DPL forum solution is a great example of what can be done, I think we should just use Article Comments with the old forum for now. And I'll whip up a manual "Related Discussions" module so we can highlight discussions.
    The one thing that can be done with my DPL forum which can't be done with Article Comments or User Blogs is moving comments. I can convert all the existing forum posts into DPL forum comment subpages, but I can't convert them to Article Comments. (They would just stay in the forum page as they are now)
    452, 2012-12-08T01:36:47Z
    (last edited: 452, 2012-12-08T01:44:19Z)
    I'll, er, leave you to do it all then, seeing as I have no clue as to what to do.
    Moozipan Cheese, 2012-12-09T12:59:48Z
    Ok, I've put in the request, and have highlighted this topic so everyone knows.
    452, 2012-12-09T16:40:00Z
    Ok, {{Discuss}} works - I'm going to merge it with Template:Talk, since it is very similar. Template:Talk will still work (for now), but I'll eventually replace all instances and remove the template.
    Category:Active Talk Pages will be replaced with Category:Active Discussions.
    452, 2012-12-09T20:57:26Z
    (last edited: 452, 2013-02-06T16:29:24Z)
    Done, done and done.
    Curiously, these threads are still accessible, and usable, but replies are not appearing in RecentChanges.
    452, 2012-12-10T17:59:47Z
    I just discovered that leaving an "Article Comment" doesn't send a notification to users following the page.
    There's no use in a forum which doesn't sent notifications of replies, so it looks like Article Comments in the forum namespace is a bust.
    Next step:  moving the Forum to User_blog - which does send notifications for comments.
    Everything will work the same, except instead of a Forum page being created, it will be a User_blog page.
    edit: Article Comments are supposed to send notifications, Wikia fixed the problem after I reported it.
    452, 2012-12-11T17:38:51Z
    (last edited: 452, 2014-03-18T17:28:23Z)
  • SRTT - The Full Package

    This post is currently higher in search results than the article itself.
    Please see Saints Row: The Third - The Full Package for full information.

    Although all Saints Row DLC have recently been removed from the Xbox Marketplace, THQ have finally done something right by announcing that they will be releasing all DLC for Saints Row: The Third on disc.

    I salute Kevin Kraff for giving fans what they have requested. Hopefully the DLC for Saints Row and Saints Row 2 will also be released on disc. The Saints Row double pack was a missed opportunity to do exactly that.

    Edit:Unfortunately it is still impossible to play multiplayer offline over System Llink without the Online pass.

    The following text is from the Press Release

    Strap It on Some More with Saints Row: The Third - The Full Package, Hitting Stores on November 6, 2012

    With every weapon, every vehicle, every outfit, every mission pack, The Full Package is the ultimate Saints Row: The Third experience.

    THQ Inc. and Volition, Inc. today announced Saints Row: The Third – The Full Package will be available for purchase in North America on November 6, 2012, and internationally on November 9, 2012 for the Xbox 360 video game and entertainment system from Microsoft, PlayStation 3 computer entertainment system, PlayStation Network and Windows PC for the suggested retail price of $49.99.

    The premiere edition of Saints Row: The Third – The Full Package includes the award-winning, critically-acclaimed, almost universally lauded Saints Row: The Third; the three downloadable mission packs Genkibowl VII, Gangstas in Space, and The Trouble With Clones; and more than 30 bonus DLC items from such hits as the Shark Attack Pack, Witches & Wieners pack, Special Operations pack, and the Girl Genki Vehicle pack. With every weapon, every vehicle, and every outfit ever created for Saints Row: The Third, players will go over the top, off the reservation, and to places where no decent game should go.

    "The fans have asked for it, and with the Full Package, we are happy to deliver," said Kevin Kraff, Vice President, Global Brand Management for THQ. "With all the amazing and over-the-top DLC Volition created, the Full Package now stands as the definitive edition of Saints Row: The Third. For anyone that has yet to play this one-of-a-kind game, it's time to strap it on."

    Remember: If a site publishes news which is sourced from a press release, but they do not link to the press release itself, it means they are plagiarists who want you to believe that the "news" is exclusive to them.

    Update: Trailer - featuring everyone's favourite porn star, Sasha Grey.

    I've been updating the section for The Full Package on the Saints Row: The Third article, but since this post is popular, I'll add the info here as well.

    Screenshot from trailer

    DLC listed in the trailer:

    DLC not listed in the trailer:

    It has been confirmed that CheapyD and the Valve Clothing Pack are included.

    The GoG version of Saints Row: The Third - The Full Package includes:

    • Bloodsucker Pack
    • Cheapy D Pack
    • Explosive Combat Pack
    • FUNTIME! Pack
    • Gangstas In Space
    • Genki Girl Pack
    • Genkibowl VII
    • Horror Pack
    • Invincible Pack
    • Money Shot Pack
    • Nyte Blayde Pack
    • Penthouse Pack
    • Shark Attack Pack
    • Special Ops Vehicle Pack
    • Steelport Gangs Pack
    • The Trouble With Clones
    • Unlockable Pack
    • Valve Clothing Pack
    • Warrior Pack
    • Witches and Wieners Pack
    • Z Style Pack

    The Online Pass is not specifically mentioned, but is no longer required.

    452, 2012-09-25T23:26:14Z (last edited: 452, 2016-06-27T03:56:16Z)

    It can be pre-ordered, but as I do not support pre-orders, I am not linking to it. I'll order it the day it is released, but not before. (I'll also sell my other copies of SRTT - I'm glad I'm not stupid enough to pay for DLC)
    And technically, linking to a store would be spam.
    452, 2012-09-25T23:33:04Z (last edited: 452, 2012-09-26T00:59:53Z)
    How come all of the DLC for Saints Row got removed from XBox Live Marketplace?
    Ryker61, 2012-10-27T08:26:54Z
    Good question, but I don't know.
    Try asking:
    Volition, Inc.
    1 Main Street #300
    Champaign, IL 61820, USA
    THQ Inc.
    29903 Agoura Road
    Agoura Hills, CA 91301
    452, 2012-10-27T08:37:45Z (last edited: 452, 2012-10-27T08:39:06Z)
    I have the original game on a disc so if i buy this DLC disc does it mean that i have 2 copies of the same game?, 2012-10-29T12:31:52Z
    Yes. (and I'm not sure if The Full Package players will be able to play multiplayer with people who have the downloaded all the DLCs)
    452, 2012-10-29T16:53:26Z
    Pretty odd. None of it was important though right?
    Ccrogers15, 2012-10-30T02:29:03Z
    All of it was important.
    452, 2012-10-30T02:33:06Z
    i have a question, are all the Saints Row 3 DLC gonna be on one disc with the game or is it gonna be on a seperate disc and you have to install them on the hardrive? or the option that i never loved - will the DLC just be a code on a one time use voucher?
    Dr4g0nSl4y3r, 2012-10-30T03:05:29Z
    I would assume it is all on a single disc, anything else would be dumb. There's already 12 DLC on the disc - the 3 additional DLC packs are only 475mb, so they will fit on a single disc along with the game.
    452, 2012-10-30T03:14:17Z (last edited: 452, 2012-10-30T03:15:29Z)
    Apparently, this is available on on the 2nd of Nov on amazon:
    452, 2012-10-30T03:21:34Z
    i just read the headline for this post and it was saying something about the xbox marketplace getting rid of all of its SRTT dlc. i know that the post is a month old but here i sit typing this to anyone interested right next to my xbow staring at the option to purchase dlc for the game. i only got it two weeks ago so time isnt a factor according to the post. right now it is october 30 2012 at 6:51pm (pacific) and there they all sit on the xbox marketplace. the compatiblilty packs for those who dont have ganstas in space or the other campaing expansion packs. there is also the the gameplay add-ons like steelport gangs pack and moneyshot, the list goes on.
    in total there are fifty eight downloadable content items; expansion packs, avatar items and trailers respectively. so if THQ planned on selling this disc it had better be at a bargain brand price for as long as it took for them to do it especially when the content sits right there.
    i also know that the dlc is not time zone specific because i have a friend on xbox live who lives in alabama which is two hours ahead of me and he got the game shortly after i did and all of the expansion packs he could afford. so anybody want to take a look at the dashboard then they will find the dlc for saints row the third waiting for them., 2012-10-31T01:50:55Z
    The headline of this post is "SRTT - The Full Package".
    This post says nothing about the xbox marketplace getting rid of all of its SRTT dlc.
    There are no Saints Row DLC available in the Xbox marketplace. If you can see Saints Row DLC in the marketplace, please post a photo of it.
    452, 2012-10-31T02:03:18Z (last edited: 452, 2013-01-07T06:37:02Z)
    Once this is released, I'll do a full extraction of all files and compare them with the originals - I have a feeling I won't be the only one doing this.
    452, 2012-10-31T04:51:10Z
    Saints Row The Third DLC photo of Invincible, Shark Attack, and Bloodsucker Packs.jpg
    Saints Row The Third DLC photo of Steelport Gangs, Penthouse, and Nyte Blayde Packs.jpg
    Saints Row The Third DLC photo of The Wide World of Genki Trailer.jpg
    i forgot that i had an account on this wiki so i had to dig it up before i could do this but there they are. iknow that it's barely visible
    but that's what happens when you take a picture of a tv screen with a low performance camera. i expanded them a bit so that there easier to read but there they are and it is now 10/31/12 at 3:40 pm (pacific) at the time of this post
    (Admin edit: renamed poorly named files.)
    Tolimee, 2012-10-31T22:39:39Z (last edited: 452, 2015-11-30T17:33:40Z)
    Those aren't Saints Row DLC.
    452, 2012-10-31T23:37:18Z (last edited: 452, 2012-10-31T23:37:43Z)
    my freind im not sure where your information originates from and i'd very much like to get the link to your sources. i decided to check one more time on the marketplace on a neighbors console to make sure that my marketplace information was in fact updated. and the very same dlc sat there on the marketplace. i also went online to gamespot and ign to check and make sure me and my friend arent hallucinating and there they sit right there. this very wiki has pages about the dlc in question that will tell you what each dlc is about. so i once again state my point. there is in fact downloadable content for saints row the third in the marketplace right now that is available for purchase.
    Tolimee, 2012-11-01T04:07:05Z
    "there is in fact downloadable content for saints row the third in the marketplace right now that is available for purchase."
    I never said there wasn't.
    Here's where I get my information: the xbox marketplace page for Saints Row. There are 3 trailers, and no Saints Row DLC. If you can see DLC via this link, please buy them and update the Saints Row DLC articles.
    452, 2012-11-01T04:56:44Z (last edited: 452, 2012-11-01T05:02:26Z)
    forgive me for misinterpreting the topic sentence;"Although ALL Saints Row DLC have recently been removed from the Xbox Marketplace." i looked at your source and found the breakdown in communication between us. the link you posted sent me here:

    that page exclusively talks about the original saints row and only lists the three trailers you mentioned. your headline however doesnt say that your talking about the first title.

    the acronym that was used by the press stands for saints row the third and after doing some digging on i found the actual page for saints row the third and the dlc that i was speaking of earlier, the link of which follows:


    i think you just grabbed the wrong headline or something but anyway review the links and tell me what you think.

    Tolimee, 2012-11-01T06:11:02Z
    "forgive me for misinterpreting the topic sentence"
    What is a "topic sentence"?
    "that page exclusively talks about the original saints row "
    Yes. Notice how all Saints Row DLC has been removed from that page.
    "your headline however doesnt say that your talking about the first title."
    Saints Row is the first title. All Saints Row DLC has been removed.
    "the acronym that was used by the press stands for saints row the third"
    What does that have to do with anything?
    "i think you just grabbed the wrong headline or something"
    What are you talking about?
    edit: since you've numbered your replies, I've added numbers here for clarity.
    452, 2012-11-01T06:59:39Z (last edited: 452, 2012-11-01T17:06:42Z)
    re:You have posted this as a new comment instead of as a reply, unfortunately, it's not currently possible to move blog comments, please repost you comment as a reply and I will delete this comment.
    sorry about wasting your time with the new post. here is the the same thing:
    question 1: you've got te be joking
    statment:1 i noticed what wasnt there when i wrote the post
    statement 2: when the title of the blog reads SRTT: the full package and you dont specifiy anything else after that. when an individual like me comes along and reads "Saints Row DLC" after rerading the title one assumes you are speaking about the third game in the series not the first.
    question 2: "the acronym that was used by the press stands for saints row the third" that was just in case there was the slight possiblilty that you havent played or heard of the third title. i'm pretty sure you have though
    question 3: you stated this:
    "The following text is from the Press Release
    Strap It on Some More with Saints Row: The Third – The Full Package, Hitting Stores on November 6, 2012
    now i could be once again misinterpreting what i'm reading but this seems to be the headline from a news article that was covering saints row the third. now either our communications breakdown extends farther than that or you were talking about the first saints row on a blog that leads readers to beleive that your talking about saints row the third
    if that isnt the case i'm sorry.
    Tolimee, 2012-11-01T21:55:30Z
    No problem, it happens - just yesterday I posted something on my own wall instead of someone elses.
    1. I have never heard the phrase "topic sentence" in my life.
    "title of the blog reads SRTT: the full package"
    It reads "SRTT - The Full Package", because the main subject of this "Saints Row: The Third - The Full Package." I used the abbreviation in the heading to save space, and used the expanded version in the body.
    "you dont specifiy anything else.", "one assumes"
    I specified "Saints Row DLC". Every time I talked about Saints Row: The Third, I used the words "Saints Row: The Third" so no-one needed to guess what I was talking about.
    "Strap It on Some More with Saints Row: The Third – The Full Package, Hitting Stores on November 6, 2012" is the heading from the press release, not from a news article.
    452, 2012-11-01T22:11:53Z (last edited: 452, 2015-11-30T17:34:49Z)
    okay i see what happened, thanks for being patient with me. and by the way here is the definition of "topic sentence"
    a sentence that states the main thought of a paragraph or of a larger unit of discourse and is usually placed at or near the beginning
    Tolimee, 2012-11-02T03:44:54Z
    Ah, where I'm from we generally refer to that as the introduction, although I'm also familiar with the term lead paragraph and opening sentence.
    452, 2012-11-02T04:07:44Z (last edited: 452, 2012-11-02T04:11:05Z)
    not worth buying. Just stick with your original copy. Once you've already completed the game, you dont feel like playing the same thing over and over again, 2012-11-11T01:38:31Z
    Thanks, why is it not worth buying?
    452, 2012-11-13T08:58:16Z (last edited: 452, 2012-11-13T09:08:15Z)
    So now that it's out - is the DLC included on-disc or a series of download codes?, 2012-11-16T08:37:52Z
    what if you got already the normal Siants Row and you buy the full package
    do yo need to do the whole game again
    plzzz anwers my question
    Gerby800, 2012-11-17T19:13:01Z
    Confirmation of whether the Bloodsucker Pack, CheapyD, Online Pass, Unlockable Pack or Valve Clothing Pack are included in this would be great.
    452, 2013-01-07T06:39:54Z
    What u mean all saints row
    Games is the best.if u best the 1 one. is more saints row coming out, 2013-01-07T12:14:46Z
    Would you care to repeat that in english?
    452, 2013-01-07T14:26:35Z
    There is two disc one is the game. The other is a disc that installs all the dlc to your hard drive. Look at it this way if your friend has the original Saints Row The Third release than you can let him install all the dlc on his Xbox the dlc disc can be used by an unlimited number of people., 2013-03-15T15:08:45Z
    Thanks for the info!
    Although just having a whole disc to install 475mb is dumb, that's pretty cool that it can be shared with multiple people like that. So just the original disc is required to inserted to play the game, and not the DLC disc?
    edit: Yes.
    452, 2013-03-15T15:11:47Z (last edited: 452, 2015-11-30T17:36:50Z)
    CheapyD and the online pass are included but the bloodsucker pack and valve clothing pack are not included., 2013-03-17T17:21:10Z
    Excellent. And do you still have to connect to the internet to redeem the "Online Pass" in order to play offline multiplayer?
    452, 2013-03-17T17:39:36Z
    I just bought standard edition and the online pass is invalid it was brand new and they have pulled all dlc off the psn store so I can't play co op any idea what's going on?, 2013-03-27T09:15:48Z
    I purchaced the full pack but none of the dlc seems to be appering hoe do i get the dlc?, 2013-05-01T01:40:45Z
    I have no idea.
    452, 2013-05-01T01:51:31Z (last edited: 452, 2013-05-01T01:51:47Z)
    I tried downlloading it to the hard drive but that dosnt seem like it worked, 2013-05-01T02:19:28Z
    What platform are you using?
    • This isn't xbox tech support
    • This isn't steam tech support
    • This isn't playstation tech support
    • This isn't volition tech support
    You paid money to one of those companies, therefore you are entitled to tech support from whomever you paid.
    452, 2013-05-01T02:49:16Z (last edited: 452, 2013-05-01T02:50:33Z)
    im using xbox. and i relize this isnt tech support thanks for that, 2013-05-01T03:04:01Z
    It looks like they even have live chat.
    452, 2013-05-01T03:15:29Z
    I think that was the case, yes. Since I got the Full Package, that would be correct.
    The Supreme Diamond-Hooded Eagle, 2013-05-01T10:04:50Z
    Damn. Thanks!
    452, 2013-05-01T10:18:03Z
    Do you get Saints Row 2 with this version just as you do with the original version or no?, 2013-05-21T04:22:44Z
    Was wondering the same thing. 
    Oogzy, 2013-05-21T04:24:51Z
    Wasn't that just for PS? When I bought SRTT for xbox, it didn't come with SR2.
    edit: I googled "free copy of Saints Row 2", and have confirmed that that was just for PS because they had announced at E3 that there was going to be an "exclusive mode" for PS, but it never happened, so they threw SR2 in as a freebie so PS players wouldn't feel too ripped off.
    When you bought the game, it didn't actually get SR2, you had the option to download it if you went online and redeemed the Online Pass.
    Also: Forum:PS3 Owners Get A Free Copy of Saints Row 2
    452, 2013-05-21T12:00:38Z (last edited: 452, 2013-05-21T12:13:12Z)
    disc, 2013-07-10T19:44:28Z
    I have s4, 2013-08-08T22:13:48Z
    Then contribute details and screenshots to the wiki.
    452, 2013-08-08T22:43:03Z
    Hey look I have the PS3 and no problem with the disc or DLC'S on Saints Row The Full Package and never wasted my money downloading DLC'S before but I did screw up to and went and bought Saints Row 4 before doing my research lol so I took my Saints Row The Third game and Saints Row 4 back and still had to pay $20 difference for The Full Package and now I'm doing Saints Row The Third all over again too.So what I'm saying all and all I probably lost over $100 also but if everyone including me would of done there research first no one would be out any money cuz I ain't going to cry over spilt milk lol..., 2013-12-21T21:15:26Z
  • Updates 2012-09

    Do you find this wiki useful? It didn't get that way by accident.
    This wiki is made by fans, for fans. We need your help to make it even better.

    This wiki is the most in-depth guide to the Saints Row series, but there's still a lot left to do.
    Our goal is to be as comprehensive as possible, and we always need more contributors.
    It is impossible to "finish" a wiki, the best we can do is do what we know needs to be done.


    Do you play Multiplayer in any game?

    Our Multiplayer articles sorely need improvement. See Category:To-do/Multiplayer for some of the things which need to be done.

    Our articles on DLC for Saints Row also need more information. See Category:To-do/DLC for some of the things which need to be done.


    We could always use more screenshots.

    • See Category:Image requests for a list of articles which are tagged requesting specific images.
    • Take a detailed screenshot of your favourite vehicle.
    • Remember to give your image upload a descriptive filename, that way if it is removed from an article in future, we know where it belongs.
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    You can view all uploaded images with Special:NewFiles and Special:ListFiles
    You can specifically view images which aren't used in articles with Special:UnusedFiles.
    Many of the images belong in multiple article, but the important thing is that they get added to at least one relevant article.

    If you see a low quality image, feel free to take our own screenshot and replace it.

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    User:Erewon started editing here just last week, and already he has uploaded over 700 excellent images of a variety of subjects.
    Erewon is the most active new user I have ever seen - myself included!


    The details on this wiki are more accurate than any game guides you can buy in stores.
    While there are some things on this wiki which are inaccurate, the difference between this wiki and a purchased game guide is that that a book will always continue to be wrong, and you cannot call "bullshit" on them.

    If you see something you think is incorrect, tell us!

    • Use the talk page attached to each article to start a discussion
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    Do you have an idea or a question? Tell us!

    • The only "stupid question" is the one you didn't ask. If asking a question makes you smarter, how can the question be stupid?
    • Even bad ideas may inspire others to come up with better ones. Just because you don't think your idea will work doesn't mean it's worthless. Most of the best ideas on this wiki came about as idle chatter: "Wouldn't it be great if we could do this? Wait a minute, we can!"
    User:Moozipan "I'm going to upgrade every mission article even if it kills me" Cheese mentioned that he wished that a table heading in a particularly long table could float down the page as you scrolled, so it was easier to read the table. I initially didn't think it could be done, but a few months later, he mentioned it again and I realised there was a way to do it after-all. Now, the table on Controls can scroll with the table-header visible at all times.


    My goal is to eliminate all potential. The wiki had a lot of potential when I first joined, and since then that potential has decreased steadily.

    • The word "potential" is defined as "Existing in possibility". It doesn't mean something is good, it means something has a long way to go before it's good.

    Decreasing potential means turning a good idea into a good implementation.

    Many users who visit this wiki come here looking at our most complete pages, so they don't see much that they can do to help.

    • Fact: There are hundreds of pages which need improvement.

    A lot of attention is given to unlockables and vehicle pages, so if you've found them useful, why not help out by writing more about a neighborhood or a building?

    The Saints Row Wiki:To-do list is dedicated to potential, and contains a list of things which will eventually be done, and will be done faster with your help.

    • If you see something that has potential, tell us about it on the To-do list.
    • Even if something is obvious to you, it should be added to the list if it isn't already there.
    • Want to help but don't know what to do? Start small, every little bit helps.
    User:RussianEngineer has suggested that we "advertise" the wiki somehow to get more editors.
    While straight-out spamming is a bad, mentioning the wiki appropriately is good.
    • If someone asks a question which is answered on this wiki, let them know.
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    • You are freely allowed to copy/paste anything on this website, but you must link back to here.
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    We need more admins, but first, we need more regular users.

    In essence:

    • Anyone undoing vandalism will be given rollback rights to allow them to undo vandalism faster.
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    452, that's me, never wanted to be an admin. As soon as someone comes along who is better at doing admin specific tasks, I can focus on adding content instead of being a janitor.


    Remember to vote in our Polls


    You may not have noticed, but a new background image has been added to all articles, and it would be great to get some feedback on it.

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    • Too light and you can't even see it?
    • Too horizontal - should it be rotated to match how it is in-game?
    • Too static - the in game image is animated, after all.
      • I don't really think we need an animated background, but it's a valid comment, if that's what you think.

    In case you missed it, I've recently posted an objective review of the Saints Row series.

    452, 2012-09-04T02:26:18Z (last edited: 452, 2016-11-13T20:33:38Z)

    Incidentally, the reason I don't do update posts any more is because of two main reasons:
    • Everything in this post is still relevant, and I would only be repeating myself.
    • Lack of replies.
    452, 2014-09-05T17:11:27Z
  • Updates 2012-07

    There are 2 new polls and a new dedicated poll list which lists all polls, which will be added to that page instead of having individual News updates for them.

    Recent Polls[]

    Poll : Top 10 list:Showdown - SR2 v SRTT

    Did you like Saints Row: The Third?

    Poll : Top 10 list:Most important

    What's the most important area of this wiki that should be improved? The results of this poll will 100% influence article improvement.

    Poll : Top 10 list:Protagonist capitalisation

    How do you think the protagonist should be capitalised?

    • The correct way, according to multiple sources, is "the protagonist".
    • Since it is the only term we call the protagonist, it is permissible to use "the Protagonist".
    • One very good reason to use "The Protagonist" is because "The General" is always used in-game.
    Poll : Top 10 list:Creating articles

    What should we do about Special:WantedPages?

    Wiki Policies[]

    There's now a Saints Row Wiki:Mission statement page, which was originally written over a year ago and contains the general principles of this wiki.

    The Policy page has been updated, as well as the Manual of Style and Article Formatting pages.

    • You don't need to memorise those pages. They're just there for reference.
    • No-one will ever get in trouble if they do something different to what's outlined on those pages.
    • Those pages are works in progress and are often reworded for clarity.
    • All policies are open for discussion.

    One page that everyone should read is Saints Row Wiki:Community guidelines, which contains a basic overview of wiki policies.

    452, 2012-07-03T02:47:38Z (last edited: 452, 2016-07-19T22:11:41Z)

    wow! why is this wiki so dead?
    RussianEngineer, 2012-07-29T01:28:42Z
    I'd guess short attention spans. There are thousands of daily visitors, I figure most of them get the information they need and leave.
    I've tried to put cleanup tags and such in articles to encourage people to edit them, as well as making the to-do list, but I figure most people would rather just get back playing the game.
    Funny thing is, I first came here to find out information on unlockables, and when I found the info was wrong, I changed it - if the information on unlockables had been correct, I would never have started editing here.
    The better this wiki becomes, the less reason there is for people to help out.
    Additionally, before I joined here, there was a general negative opinion of this wiki due to a problem with the former administration.
    While I've done my best to fix the problems of the past, I have no idea if that has fixed the reputation of this wiki.
    If you want to work on publicity for the wiki, feel free. I'm personally more interested in improving the wiki than drumming up new editors myself, but I have no problem with others spreading the word.
    One thing you can try to do in order to get people to come to the wiki is answer questions on forums with info from this wiki, and link back to the page you found the information - this is what I used to do, but it just took up too much time.
    452, 2012-07-29T01:40:24Z
    I do think that we should advertise this wiki on more popular ones, like CoD wiki and BF wiki
    RussianEngineer, 2012-07-29T19:48:49Z
    I don't see any way in which that would be possible without spamming.
    452, 2012-07-29T20:02:49Z
    naw. just one post, and on a busy blog. people always reply to each other, because there are hundreds of them. :D
    RussianEngineer, 2012-07-29T22:57:01Z
  • Mission flowchart

    A while ago, Sjacie started a Mission flowchart, but never finished it. He hasn't returned since December, so I'm putting out an open request for help.
    I'd like to get the flowchart finished, so I made a list of all points which need to be verified.
    There are 5 main tests, with a total of 22 individual points which need to be verified.

    If you would like to help, simply verify the information marked with with question marks.

    • If what is posted here is correct, just a short message saying so will do.
    • If something is incorrect, please give as much detail as possible as to what doesn't match your results.

    The starting point overall is Act 2, so a saved game named Return to Steelport would help greatly. If you want to tackle multiple tests, most tests can be done after another, but some require reloading, and I've noted at which points you should make a new saved game to reload later.

    • You don't need to do all 21 tests, if 10 people pick one mission pair each, it's not too much work. A saved game in between the tests will allow you to do some of the later tests.
    • If you have a saved game which matches any of the available missions for a test, you can start midway - this is why I've broken it into 22 points.
    • Unless otherwise noted, these can be completed in this order.
    • Reload and Save notes can be used to skip sections. Dead-end tests are listed first.

    To start with, after Return to Steelportthere should be 4 missions in the cellphone: Trojan Whores (Shaundi), Snatch (Zimos), Cyber Blazing (Kinzie), Insurance Fraud (Angel)
    We need to know exactly what happens after each arc. First, do all the Activity missions. After doing all activities, there should be 4 missions listed in the cellphone: Trojan Whores (Shaundi), Painting a Picture (Zimos), Phone Phreak (Kinzie), Face Your Fear (Angel)

    Save the game at this point.

    Act 2[]

    Trojan Pimps - Test I
    1. Save the game - this is Save A.
    2. Complete Trojan Whores.
    3. Nothing is unlocked. Available missions should be Painting a Picture, Phone Phreak and Face Your Fear. (?0)
    Trojan Pimps - Test II

    'Reload Save A.

    1. Complete Painting a Picture
    2. After Painting a Picture, the only available missions should be Trojan Whores, Phone Phreak and Face Your Fear. (?1)
    3. Complete Trojan Whores.
    4. After Trojan Whores, Pimps Up, Hos Down should be unlocked. (?2)
    • Complete Pimps Up, Hos Down and The Ho Boat

    Save the game, this is Save B.

    Phreak Bang - test I
    1. The available missions should be Phone Phreak, Face Your Fear and Gang Bang
    2. Complete Phone Phreak.
    3. The available missions should be Face Your Fear and Gang Bang (?3)
    4. Complete Gang Bang.
    5. The available missions should now be Face Your Fear, Convoy Decoy and Live! with Killbane (?4)
    Phreak Bang - test II

    Reload Save B

    1. The available missions should be Gang Bang, Phone Phreak and Face Your Fear.
    2. Complete Gang Bang.
    3. After Gang Bang, are the available missions Phone Phreak and Face Your Fear? (?5a)
    4. After Gang Bang, are the available missions Phone Phreak, Face Your Fear, Live! with Killbane and Convoy Decoy? (?5b)
    5. Save the game after Gang Bang with Phone Phreak available - This is Save C
    6. Complete Phone Phreak
    7. After Phone Phreak, the available missions should be Face Your Fear, Live! with Killbane and Convoy Decoy (?6)
    Stop Downloading Killbane - test I
    1. Complete Live! with Killbane.
    2. After Live! with Killbane, the available missions should be Convoy Decoy, Face Your Fear and Learning Computer. (?7)
    3. Complete Live! with Learning Computer.
    4. After Learning Computer, Stop all the Downloading should be unlocked. (?8)
    Stop Downloading Killbane - test II

    'Reload Save C - after Gang Bang, before Phone Phreak

    1. The available missions should be Convoy Decoy, Face Your Fear, Phone Phreak and Live! with Killbane? (?9)
    2. Complete Live! with Killbane and Learning Computer.
    3. After Learning Computer, the only options should be Convoy Decoy, Face Your Fear, and Phone Phreak. (?10)
    4. Complete Phone Phreak
    5. After Phone Phreak, Stop all the Downloading should be unlocked. (?11)
    My name is Party.die - Test I
    1. Complete Convoy Decoy and Nyte Blayde's return
    2. Save after Nyte Blayde's return, before STAG Party - this is Save D
    3. Complete STAG Party
    4. After STAG Party, the available missions should be Face Your Fear and deckers.die (?12)
    5. Complete deckers.die
    6. After deckers.die, My Name is Cyrus Temple should be unlocked. (?13)
    My name is Party.die - Test II

    'Reload after Nyte Blayde's return, with STAG Party available.

    1. Complete deckers.die
    2. After deckers.die, the available missions should be Face Your Fear and STAG Party (?14)
    3. Complete STAG Party.
    4. After STAG Party, My Name is Cyrus Temple should be unlocked (?15)
    My name is Cyrus Temple - Test III
    1. Complete My Name is Cyrus Temple.
    2. After My Name is Cyrus Temple, the available missions should be Face Your Fear, A Remote Chance and Air Steelport (?16)
    3. Save the game, this is save E.

    Act 3[]

    These last 3 can be done in any order, using save E as the starting point.

    Face Your Three Way Beat Down - Test I

    Continuing from Save E

    1. Complete Air Steelport and Zombie Attack
    2. Save the game - this is Save F
    3. Complete Face Your Fear.
    4. After Face Your Fear, the only available mission should be A Remote Chance (?17)
    5. Complete A Remote Chance
    6. After A Remote Chance, the only available mission should be 3 Count Beat Down (?18)
    Face Your Three Way Beat Down - Test II

    ReloadSave F, with Face Your Fear and A Remote Chance available
    Or 'Reload Save E and complete Air Steelport and Zombie Attack

    1. Complete A Remote Chance
    2. After A Remote Chance, the only available mission should be Face Your Fear (?19)
    3. Complete Face Your Fear.
    4. After Face Your Fear, the only available mission should be 3 Count Beat Down (?20)
    5. Complete 3 Count Beat Down and Murderbrawl XXXI
    6. After Murderbrawl XXXI, Three Way should be available (?21)
    Three Way - Test III

    Reload Save E

    1. Complete all missions except Zombie Attack.
    2. After Zombie Attack, Three Way should be available (?22)

    If less than three are wrong, and helpers can give me details about when the wrong missions, that should be enough information to assemble a complete flowchart. If there are more than a couple wrong, I may need to write another series of tests.

    452, 2012-06-08T21:34:02Z (last edited: 452, 2015-02-01T16:07:32Z)

    This is going to be super annoying to test out. I'll see if I can find the time to try this out in the next few days. If I can use cheats, I should be able to fly through the first few levels to get to Act 2 quickly.
    Moozipan Cheese, 2012-06-13T11:05:23Z
    Yes, fully agree, Connor, will be very difficult. Also, maybe I can help.
    TheMoonLightman, 2012-06-13T12:09:03Z
    Hopefully you can!
    Moozipan Cheese, 2012-06-13T15:54:33Z
    Oh, I thought I had made things easy :(
    452, 2012-06-14T01:00:15Z
    Hopefully we all can! :)
    TheMoonLightman, 2012-06-15T10:56:34Z
    It occurs to me that these instructions could be made simpler, I'll do some rewording now.
    (8 mins later...)
    Ok, done. I had worded it so the start of the arcs were the start of testing, but since the activities themselves do not need verification, they can be done before the tests.
    As it happens I've just finished playing through the game to the new test start-point (all activities completed, 4 missions in cellphone). So soon I'll be running doing the primary Act 2 tests myself.
    But I'll still require third party confirmation in case I'm wrong.
    It also occurs to me that I should probably have stated the complete game state before each test. I'll do that in my results, the reword the test. (Sounds like I learned my testing methodology from Mythbusters.)
    452, 2012-07-25T00:21:43Z
    My results so far:
    • 0) True (I initially forgot this test, as well as a couple of others.)
    • 1) True
    • 2) True
    • 3) True
    • 4) True
    • 5a) False
    • 5b) True
    • 6) True
    • 7) True
    • 8) True
    • 9) True
    • 10) True
    • 11) True
    I just started the "My name is Party.die" test and completed Convoy Decoy.
    Unfortunately, playing Saints Row: The Third for hours on end has apparently overheated the PSU in my computer. I'm waiting for it to cool down to verify it's dead. While I had a temperature monitor set to shut down my computer if it exceeded 90 degrees, that only applied to the CPU and MB, and not the PSU temp.
    While there is a small chance that the PSU overload damaged other components, but hopefully my data is fine. I've just gotta replace the PSU. Again.
    Luckily, I moved 2gb of screenshots over to my external harddrive yesterday, so I can spent the downtime sorting them and preparing them to upload.
    If anyone wants to continue testing, starting with the test named "My name is Party.die" would be the most helpful.
    452, 2012-07-26T01:06:31Z
    Also, a flowchart draft
    • edit: Updated, view image history for previous version
    • edit: Updated again to compress chart. Splits are now represented differently, with the "main" trunk continuing straight
    Saints 3 mission flowchart new.jpg
    One interesting thing I noticed is that in the menu, the "exit/retry mission" option says "exit/retry stronghold" for the 4 strongholds, including Hit the Powder room. So if there was any doubt left that Powder is a stronghold, that is definitive in-game proof.
    The numbers in brackets are the number of missions in each arc. Activities are not counted.
    I have not yet played through the STAG missions, but there appear to be two groups of 4 missions, which would make the most sense as all other arcs have 4 missions.
    (I've counted "Return to Steelport" is counted as a morningstar mission, and the counted choices in Three Way as a Luchadore and a STAG mission, it rounds in out to an even 4 missions per arc.)
    I noticed a trend that after the activities, there is a cutscene mission, followed by a stronghold, followed by a "boss fight". I also noticed that there is always one tangential mission in each arc. In the Pierce/Loren arc, Takeover the City fits this description, although it appears in sequence while the others are unlocked as part of a parallel arc.
    I'm interesting in trying to see if there is a parallel to this pattern in the STAG missions, to try to determine at which point the STAG stronghold would have occurred - it would have had to have been a mission which took place at the PR Center. Ideally after a cutscene and before a boss fight.
    452, 2012-07-26T01:08:25Z
    Something that didn't occur to me before is that "Final" mission in each arc always has a choice at the end.
    The mid-mission choice in My Name is Cyrus Temple shouldn't be included in this - all others appear at the very end of the mission.
    The STAG arc does have one "cutscene only" mission, in the form of the "Stilwater Blues" phonecall, it doesn't quite match the pattern. Nyte Blayde's Return is the only mission to really have a Siege on the PR Center, and contains something all Strongholds have: a unique interior which is never seen again. Therefore, Nyte Blayde's Return was originally intended to be the STAG Stronghold mission, which means STAG party, with a end-mission choice was going to be the Finale of that Arc.
    Speculation: While they originally planned to have all arcs follow the same pattern, they couldn't get the storyline to match the pattern, and so dropped the STAG stronghold. It wouldn't have really made sense anyway, since STAG would certainly attempt to take it back.

    Perhaps this is also why Powder was removed - although more likely it was just due to the merging of Viola's and Loren's gangs.
    IMO, they should have left the pattern intact, maybe that's just because I desire a cleaner flowchart, but I don't really like the storyline of Killbane taking over anyway.
    They probably pushed the Luchadores conclusion into Act 3 due to the post-deckers cutscene of Matt leaving, but the solution to that is to have deckers.die unlock Night Blayde's Return and have STAG Party unlock A Remote Chance, which allows the storyline to continue to make sense and the Luchadores Arc and the first STAG Arc to conclude in Act 2. This leaves Act 3 as a linear STAG epilogue. (I'll make a draft flowchart of this progression)

    Three Way could still have had the same choice, with Killbane being in hiding during Act 3 until then.
    452, 2012-07-27T23:23:49Z
    Testing new template












    In case it's not clear:
    • light colours indicate activities
    • black border indicates cutscene
    • hover for a mission name popup
    see {{Saints_Row:_The_Third_Mission_flowchart}} for a 200px version
    452, 2012-08-11T02:46:21Z (last edited: 452, 2015-01-12T15:29:39Z)
    Oh good, it stretches okay.
    I spent a while perfecting this locally in a html file, but wikia's default styles messed it up, I did have the lines connecting all missions, but this will have to do. It's still pretty clear anyway.
    edit : it may just be easiest at this point to get rid of the vertical lines.
    edit: lines between missions removed
    (restoring old comments)
    452, 2012-08-11T02:47:56Z
    A changed the lines to div background images, which are now displaying correctly.
    452, 2012-08-12T02:46:42Z
    Comments? Anyone?
    452, 2012-12-01T03:25:38Z
    Since no-one has shown any interest in this in 2 years, perhaps I should just propose it for deletion.
    452, 2014-01-31T19:06:00Z
    Save files for each mission:
    452, 2013-02-12T01:42:11Z
    Ah, so that's where I left the PC files, now where did I leave the xbox files?!
    452, 2014-12-19T09:52:51Z
  • Updates 2012-05

    There have been a bunch of behind the scenes updates that will benefit everyone.

    Full Vehicle Details, a Quote index, updated random articles, featured article summaries, dynamic cleanup lists, section transclusion, thin floating galleries.

    Dynamic Lists[]

    • The Index has been overhauled, and is now completely dynamic, which means it's always up to date.
    • All of the {{Random}} templates have also been updated to be dynamic.

    Both the Index, and the Random Templates function due to our very detailed Category system. Categories may not interest you, but it's very important that all articles are correctly categorised.

    Featured Articles[]

    We also now have a Featured Article area on the main page, the displayed Featured Article is randomly selected from all Gold-rated Articles.

    If you would like to nominate an article to be featured, add {{rating}} to the bottom of the article.

    Cleanup lists[]

    The maintenance categories have always existed, but the category pages have now been updated with dynamic lists, as well as the reason it is listed.

    Category:Active Discussions
    A list of pages with open discussions
    Category:Image requests
    A list of articles with specific image requests
    Category:Cleanup requests
    A list of articles with problems
    Category:Reference requests
    A list of facts without references, such as to specific missions

    Since these pages show the reasons given in these templates, it's now important to remember to include a reason when using these templates.

    As always, Saints Row Wiki:Templates has a list of templates which can be used in articles.

    Section Transclusion[]

    A little technical, but it is now possible to add a label to a section of one article, and include that section in another article.

    • Marking: <section begin=sectionlabel />section text<section end=sectionlabel />
    • Including: {{#lst:articlename|sectionlabel}} or {{#section:articlename|sectionlabel}}
    • edit: Now {{section|articlename|sectionlabel}} only

    One possible use for this is to include DLC achievements on multiple pages.

    edit: This is also used for Homie conversations, Audio Logs and Newscasts

    Thin Galleries[]

    I've enabled custom Thin galleries, which are useful for floating a slideshow to the right of text in an article.

    Instead of

    <gallery type="slideshow" widths="300px" position="right" style="width:200px !important;" class="thin">


    {{gallery|type=float|class=thin|widths=400|style=width:250px !important;|{{#!:
    Image1.png|Caption 1
    Image2.jpg|Caption 2
    }} }}

    The "widths" variable sets the width and height of the actual image, while the "width:" variable sets the width of the gallery box, without effecting the height.

    Vehicle details[]

    I've updated Vehicles in Saints Row: The Third to include all relevant vehicle statistics.

    I've also updated:

    452 - 2012-05-05 18:13:53

  • Player article title

    The player character of the Saints Row series does not have a name, or a consistent title.
    What title do you think should be used for the article about the main character? Please post any reasons for any particular title.

    The article here on the player character was created as "The Silent Protagonist", before being renamed to "The Protagonist" when Saints Row 2 was released.

    The problem with this is that the game never refers to the player as "The Protagonist", which makes it an odd choice for an article title. This wiki extensively uses the term "The Protagonist", simply due to it being the title of the article.

    But nothing is set in stone, and there's no reason the article cannot be renamed to a more appropriate title.

    The very first thing that the player is called in the series is "Playa", during the The Streets of Stilwater opening cutscene. Julius, Johnny and Dex often call the player "Playa", so it seems to be the choice which makes the most sense. The use of the slang spelling "Playa" is good, because the word "Playa" can be used to refer to the character, and the word "Player" can be safely used to refer to the user playing the game.

    In Saints Row 2, and The Third, the Player is sometimes referred to as "Boss"

    • "Boss" is never used in Saints Row.
    • Unlike the word "Playa", "Boss" is used to refer to another character - Ben King is called "boss" by Tony Green.
    • The term "Boss" is also used in the generic sense, as in "Gang Boss", whereas the word "playa" is always used when addressing the Player, and never generically.

    Additionally, there is the matter of "Used most often".

    • "Playa" is used 40 times in the series. (As of 2019-10-12, there are 41 articles which link to this term.)
    • "Boss" is used 23 times in the series. (As of 2019-10-12, there are 11 articles which link to this term.)

    Other obvious options are Player, Player Character or Main Character.

    More discussion: Talk:Playa#More Interesting Name.3F

    I first posted this as a poll, but I realize that that was the wrong format for this discussion, because the reason behind the choice is more important than the choice itself, so please post your opinion here in the comments, as well as why you think that title is better.

    Can anyone give a reason why "The Protagonist" article should not be renamed "Playa", since this is the most consistent thing the player character is called in the game?

    Can anyone give any reason at all why the article should remain as "The Protagonist", given that this title is never used by the game?

    452, 2012-04-08T05:32:51Z (last edited: 452, 2015-02-01T16:07:32Z)

    Epilogue: The title "protagonist" was eventually used in game. By Shakespeare. When referring to Gat or Kinzie, rather than Playa. 452 17:37, 26 January 2021 (UTC)


    I think, the protagonist is better.
    TheMoonLightman, 2012-04-08T06:07:21Z
    Thanks, but what exactly makes it better?
    452, 2012-04-09T03:51:44Z

    male : rory
    female ; amanda, 2012-04-08T17:22:21Z
    I don't recall either of those names being used in-game.
    452, 2012-04-09T03:51:07Z (last edited: 452, 2015-08-04T01:55:48Z)

    Sounds like somebody listened to my comment and ended the poll. Feels nice to be heard for once., 2012-04-09T02:59:46Z
    I have looked at your edit history and cannot find any time that you were ignored in the past.
    Your comment was "Are we gonna end this vote soon? Or is this just going to be one of those everlasting polls that don't ever end?"
    That poll was only up for 3 weeks, there was no clear result, and we've never had any "everlasting polls that don't ever end". Every poll to date has been acted upon once there was a clear result, and no poll has been started before the previous one had ended.
    I would love to hear your opinion on the issue of the Player Character's article name.
    452, 2012-04-09T03:50:52Z

    How about searching the following terms;
    Player, Main Character, Protagonist, Boss, Playa, Silent Protagonist and Playable Character
    all redirect to 'The Protagonist'?
    Short term solution, I know but it would stop confusion until a universal name can be chosen.
    Bravo315, 2012-04-11T00:09:28Z
    That's actually a very good idea, since they're all valid names, thanks.
    Player, Main Character, Protagonist, Boss, Playa, and Playable Character
    edit: Link to "Protagonist" removed
    452, 2012-04-11T01:32:33Z (last edited: 452, 2016-08-11T21:05:53Z)

    You have to think about a name that isa boy or girl name like for example "Sam", 2012-04-13T23:44:49Z
    I'm not interesting in making up some random name, I'm just talking about what to call the article.
    452, 2012-04-13T23:51:51Z

    it was during a mission it was a discussion with the protagonist about real names the protagonist called him/her "martha fucking stewart" obviously it's fake but it's the closest to an actual name as possible
    DBD Abyss, 2012-04-15T21:17:59Z
    Are you seriously proposing that we rename "The Protagonist" to "martha fucking stewart"?
    452, 2012-04-15T22:46:54Z
    no i was just saying it's the closest we have to a name
    DBD Abyss, 2012-04-15T22:48:43Z
    We're not looking for a name, we're looking for an article title.
    452, 2012-04-15T22:55:00Z

    Assuming I'm not to late, I would like to cast my vote toward keeping the article "The Protagonist." It sounds more professional (yes I know this is the Saints Row wiki) than just playa, and maintains a level of gender neutrality that is missing in playa. Is playa a fun little bit because it refers to the PC and at the same time the actual player? Yes. But aside from that there is no unique quality to playa, which is a lable that can be applied to anyone, so its not really even a nick name. If the reasoning for using player is simply that it is the most frequently found "name" than you might as well name the page "You."
    The Dyre Wolf, 2012-04-26T03:24:36Z
    The term "The Protagonist" is never used in the game. "Playa" is.
    There is no unique quality to "You", which is a lable that can be applied to anyone, so its not really even a nick name. The term "You" is used many other times in the game, and is applied to many people.
    Only the Player Character is ever called "Playa" in the game, it isn't a label applied to anyone. It is a label applied solely to the Player Character.
    452, 2012-04-26T08:19:28Z
    Exactly, there is no unique quality to "you" in the same way that there is no unique quality to playa. Many of the Saints could be called a playa because of the way the term is defined in real life; it would be similiar to naming the article dude because the term is non-exclusive. There is something to be said if the PC is the only character who's called playa throughout the entire series and was refered to such exclusively. Crackdown offers a similiar situation where the protagonist is a nameless character, but unlike Saints Row, Crackdown refers to its PC only as Agent. Thus it makes sense to refer to the PC as Agent, but in our case we don't have a PC that's called anyone name in such a manner. The PC is called Boss in both the 2nd and 3rd games more so than any other name, but we can't use that, because as you already noted, this was not the case in the first game.
    Then there is the flow of the article for example:
    Compare that to:
    This is just an example, and just consider removing "The Protagonist" from the article and replacing it with Playa. It sounds odd at the very least, and if we aren't willing to substitute Playa in the actual page, then why change the page name at all? Playa is not the characters name nor is it a nickname, just a way of addressing another individual. While the PC is never refered to as protagonist in the games, the PC is the protagonist of the series.
    The Dyre Wolf, 2012-04-26T17:33:49Z
    Excellent, this is exactly the kind of feedback I've been wanting. :)
    Apologies in advance for repeating myself.
    • Exactly, there is no unique quality to "you" in the same way that there is no unique quality to playa.
    Playa is unique, because only the Player Character is ever called "Playa" in the game. It is never used to refer to anyone else.
    The word "you" is used by many characters to to refer to many characters, which makes it different.
    • Many of the Saints could be called a playa because of the way the term is defined in real life; it would be similiar to naming the article dude because the term is non-exclusive.
    Correct, for real life, incorrect for the game.
    While the word "dude" retains it's common use in the game, and is non-exclusive, the term "Playa" is used exclusively to refer to the Player Character. No-one else is ever called Playa at any time in the series.
    • Then there is the flow of the article for example:'
    Thankyou, this is the first good reason anyone has offered to keep "The Protagonist"
    Change "The Protagonist" to "Protagonist" and "Playa" to "The Playa" and reads it again. Dropping "Boss" in wouldn't read any better either.
    The example could easily be reworded to read better for "Playa", I'm not proposing a straight find/replace. I would reword the intro as :
    The Saints Row series concerns an unnamed character's adventures as a 3rd Street Saints gang member. In the first cutscene of the game, the player's character is called "Playa", and this is the most often used term to refer to the protagonist of the series.
    (I would move the extended referenced section to the description)
    • Playa is not the characters name nor is it a nickname
    It is a nickname in the sense that it is how characters in the game refer to the character.
    The Protagonist is not the characters name, nor is it a nickname, nor is it ever used in the game.
    So there are more reasons not to use "The Protagonist", which is why other options are being considered.
    • Boss
    To sidestep the fact that Playa may not appear at all in Saints Row: The Third, there is another reason it wins over "Boss".
    • "Playa" is used 40 times in the series.
    • "Boss" is used 23 times in the series. Unlike the word "Playa", "Boss" is used to refer to another character - Green calls King "boss".
    452, 2012-04-26T22:27:53Z
    I wasn't completely sure if playa had been directed toward anyone other than the PC, but thanks for clearing that up. Based on this part then I can see playa being alright, but I still have a few issues.
    Change "The Protagonist" to "Protagonist" and "Playa" to "The Playa" and reads it again. Dropping "Boss" in wouldn't read any better either.
    Protagonist doesn't read any better than playa, but at the same time the PC is never called "The Playa" either. I realise that sounds odd, as we both know that "the protagonist" ia a name that never appears in game, but I think that's the big difference.
    If I were to say Master Chief is the protagonist of Halo, than "the" is still necessary for the sentence to sound natural. Playa as used in game is not accompanied by "the", so adding it is counter productive if changing the name is meant to use an in game source.
    The Saints Row series concerns an unnamed character's adventures as a 3rd Street Saints gang member. In the first cutscene of the game, the player's character is called "Playa", and this is the most often used term to refer to the protagonist of the series.
    This works for the example, but that was just a small part of the article. While it may be possible to re-write the entire page to replace the protagonist every or at least most eveytime, it would be hard to do so. It can't be replaced with just "playa" as previously mentioned and "the playa" doesn't work as mentioned above. So the problem of have a page named one thing, but calling the character another would still come up.
    The final reason I can see for using "the protagonist" over "playa" is that it might be easier for wiki users to find. Since several names can be linked to one page that's not as much of an issue, but I don't know that when searching people will look for either one. The first time I used the wiki I had no idea what to search for when looking up this exact topic, but when I saw "The Protagonist" it was fairly clear. I'm not sure that seeing playa would be as obvious, especially to new users.
    The Dyre Wolf, 2012-04-27T00:42:48Z
    Good point about the necessity of "The", and you're right that generally sentences do read better as "The Protagonist did this and that", than "Playa did this and that", and that "The Playa did this and that" doesn't really work.
    So in the end, you've done a pretty good job of convincing me that we're better off staying with "The Protagonist", simply because it reads better that way, thanks!
    At the moment, Player, Main Character, Protagonist, Boss, Playa, and Playable Character all redirect, so hopefully it's a little easier than it used to be for people to find the right article.
    I hope you'll stick around, I'd love to hear your opinion on some other topics.
    edit: Link to "Protagonist" removed
    452, 2012-04-27T01:03:09Z (last edited: 452, 2016-08-11T21:05:24Z)
    Glad I could help out
    The Dyre Wolf, 2012-04-28T01:18:29Z
    As it turns out, there's not really any rewording required, and a simple replacement reads fine in the majority of cases, although I can understand that it may take some people a little while to get used to it. 452 06:12, October 14, 2019 (UTC)

    I believe that "The Boss" would be the most appropriate, as by Saints Row the Third, he is the Boss, and is referred to as such, Ironically and also I use this as an aexample, Naked Snake from the Metal Gear Solid series is known as "Big Boss" by the end of the series, not by his old name, and not by his debated real name, so The Boss is an appropriate title for the protagonist.
    TheRealTerminal, 2012-04-27T00:27:05Z
    I would love to know exactly how many times the term "Boss" is used in SRTT.
    I wish I'd suggested this a year ago, then SRTT wouldn't be an issue, and the solution would be clear.
    edit: *facepalm*, I've had the subtitle file for Saints Row The Third all along, haha - the word "boss" is used 5 times.
    452, 2012-04-27T00:36:59Z

    As a followup -
    • The Protagonist ?
    • the Protagonist ?
    • the protagonist ?
    > Talk:Playa#Capitalisation
    452, 2012-05-10T23:10:51Z

    $20 says that sooner or later someone will suggest to rename it to "President" or something similar.
    452, 2013-06-08T00:06:24Z
    $20 says that I agree with you. So, erm, who pays us when we win?
    Moozipan Cheese, 2013-06-08T00:32:21Z
    I know a couple of places we can get an easy $20. Each![1]
    452, 2013-06-08T04:54:03Z (last edited: 452, 2015-08-04T01:44:07Z)
    I think we both lost the bet, it's been a year and it hasn't happened, yet.
    452, 2014-07-01T00:44:33Z
    It was suggested on 2014-01-04, but never renamed. 452 01:45, September 20, 2019 (UTC)

    Hey, if Saints Row IV is indeed going to be the last Saints Row game, maybe Volition will put us out of our misery and tell us the name. It's not like they didn't tease it a bunch of times in Saints Row: The Third. It'll probably never happen, but "A man can dream though, a man can dream..."
    Moozipan Cheese, 2013-06-08T21:45:40Z
    Perhaps the finale will take place at Trenzalore.
    edit: Now that I think about it... his name is a closely guarded secret, he is known by only a title, he came back from the dead with a different face, he always saves the day, possible time travel...
    edit: and constantly recruiting new companions...
    452, 2013-06-08T22:18:09Z (last edited: 452, 2016-03-06T21:27:08Z)
  • Message Wall

    Wikia's new Message Wall feature has become available so I have enabled it.

    In case you haven't heard about it, the Message Wall replaces user talk pages.

    Anytime anyone replies to a message you have left on a user talk page, it will be shown in the notification section at the top right of the screen.

    This means that when someone leaves you a message on your talk page, you should reply to their message directly on your talk page.

    There is a box below each messages which says "Post a reply", simply click there and type your response.

    All previous talk pages have been automatically archived, there is a "See archived talk page" link to you talk page archive at the bottom of your Message Wall page.

    Unfortunately, only admins can edit archived talk pages, so if you need something edited for any reason, please contact an admin. Or leave a message below.

    Update: 2015-01-08. All users can now edit archived talk pages, as it was always possible, but Wikia Staff never told me about it despite me mentioning this issue to them several times.

    Update: 2012-02-08. Due to a number of issues, I'm considering disabling Message Wall. Unfortunately, this means any Message Wall conversations will in inaccessible.

    Update: 2012-04-02. I was promised that the issues would be addressed. Some have, some haven't.
    Update: 2015-01-08. Unfortunately, not much has changed since the last update. Some issues were addressed, some weren't.

    For the record, in light of the lack of improvements, I wish I had never enabled it in the first place.

    452, 2012-01-28T00:46:53Z (last edited: 452, 2015-01-08T18:25:56Z)

    See also: Forum:Disabling Message Wall 452 (talk) 13:37, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Trivia

    Update: Random trivia is now implemented though {{Trivia}}, so each trivia line is located in each article, instead of all on one page.

    If you want to add a trivia item to the rotation, feel free to add the template yourself, or you can post it as a comment here and I'll add it.

    To be counted as trivia, it should be:

    • Something in-game
    • Something that isn't obvious
    • Something that is written in an article, so the answer can link to the article

    Here's a randomly generated trivia item:

    Original post containing outdated info.

    We're always looking to update our trivia template, but it's a massive task to look through all of the articles in order to find interesting trivia to add.

    If you have some Trivia you think is relevant, feel free to add it to the template yourself, or you can post it as a comment here and I'll add it to the template.

    You can go to {{Random/Trivia}} and click "edit" in order to see the full list of trivia, which will give you an idea of the type of stuff we are looking for.
    Please be aware that commonly known facts are not trivia, "Who is the voice of Julius" is not really a good question, neither is "What is X based upon?".

    452, 2012-01-10T08:18:05Z (last edited: 452, 2015-07-23T00:06:08Z)

    Saint row figther 44, 2012-01-27T16:47:49Z
    Regarding trivia in general, I think you need to add that it shouldn't be in the main body of the article; for example, if in the article it says someone dies, "trivia: someone dies" is pretty useless. Also, I think we should discourage "this is the first / second / third / etc..." or "this is the only..." trivia, they're almost never anything interesting.
    Regarding the template, I don't really like the formatting; apart from anything else, almost every browser will display where the link goes when you hover over it. I think it would be better to just have the trivia notes as complete thoughts with "Did you know..." above them (to use the current one as an example; "Did you know...That the Forklift is the only vehicle in Saints Row which cannot be obtained without cheats?")
    Evil Tim, 2012-01-27T19:25:08Z
    Trivia doesn't have to be interesting.
    That's certainly a good point about the formatting. Taking into account that the general idea of the trivia is to get people to visit articles they might not otherwise visit, there's a slightly higher chance of someone clicking through to the article the way it is. Anyone who wants to know but doesn't want to click can just hover for the answer.
    452, 2012-01-28T01:02:15Z
    More trivia!
    The guys at volition must love The Karate Kid and Passenger 57. We saw the Snipes 57 airplane in SR2 and now we have Wesley Cutter International Arport (Wesley Snipes's character in Passenger 57 was named John Cutter.).
    "You're The Best Around" from The Karate Kid soundtrack is plays on 107.77: The Mix and the KA-1 Kobra pistol is obviiously a play on words in reference to the Cobra Kai dojo., 2012-02-01T15:18:18Z
    Those things definitely belong in the trivia sections of those articles.
    452, 2012-02-01T15:37:27Z
    Related discussion: Template talk:Random/Trivia
    452, 2012-09-24T01:06:30Z
  • New admins

    We are always looking for new Admins. This is a general outline of what we look for.

    In essence, if you make life easier for existing Admins, you get to be one.

    Adminship is a responsibility. There are a number of areas in which administrators are expected to be active, these are listed on the Saints Row Wiki:Admins page.
    Adminship is not a reward and it is not a honorary title, administrators must remain active, and regularly perform admin-related tasks.

    There is no "application process" for becoming an administrator, simply do your best as an editor, and anyone who stands out as a good editor is eligible, regardless of how many edits they have. What matters is the quality of edits, not the quantity, but users should be a regular editor for at least a month.

    Any good editor who needs access to admin tools is given admin rights.

    Qualities which Admins should have are:

    • Using edit summaries to explain edits.
    • Taking part in Active Discussion, including giving opinions and answering questions.
      • Remaining neutral in any disagreements and refraining from any insults, even when dealing with vandals.
    • Regularly checking Special:RecentChanges and inspecting recent edits for vandalism and formatting mistakes.
      • Users who regularly undo vandalism are granted Rollback rights, which enables faster vandalism reversal. This is often the first step in becoming an admin.
      • New users are not expected to be perfect editors, and it is important to watch for any mistakes, or improvements that can be made to edits by inexperienced users, as well as directing new users to relevant help pages if necessary.

    452, 2012-01-01T00:59:43Z (last edited: 452, 2015-04-23T14:03:25Z)

    Yeah, that sounds like fun I'd love to do that
    White&Gold, 2012-01-15T20:21:05Z
    Given that you have only edited 7 times since this comment, it is unlikely that you will become an administrator.
    452, 2014-11-10T15:01:35Z
    I want to be an administrator, 2012-02-25T03:16:12Z
    Given that this was your only edit: No, you will not be an administrator.
    452, 2014-11-10T15:00:09Z
    I would absolutely love to be an admin i have been removing vandalism all morning i would love to learn about block people I love removing vandalism but i don't like it getting written down by people who think it's fun to mess with things people have worked really hard on
    The Ultor Corporation, 2012-02-26T04:26:28Z
    Given that you have not edited in over a year, it is unlikely that you will become an administrator.
    452, 2014-11-10T15:00:52Z
  • Minor Characters Poll

    Please take this poll, it will decide whether small articles subjects with very little available information should have a dedicated article, or a section on a larger page.

    The current notability policy on this wiki is that a subject must be able to be linked from multiple pages to warrant having a dedicated article, and that the information in those articles is merged with larger articles.
    This policy has been applied to pages such as the Stilwater Seal, Mr Wong's dog Sadie, various Stilwater Businesses and Brands, and the DJs for each Radio Station. All information on the stub articles about businesses, brands and DJs was merged into the larger articles about the subjects, making the large articles better, and reducing the number of small, uninteresting articles which do not have any other articles linking to them.
    If a Character does not get a dedicated article, then their info is merged with whichever article is relevant to them. All information is kept.
    Many Activity cutscene characters have already been merged, see Characters in Saints Row#Cutscene characters for a list of minor characters who do not have their own articles.

    The results previous poll, about Hitman Targets, also agreed with this policy, and the individual Hitman Target pages were merged into a single page. This made complete sense, as the individual Hitman Targets were only linked from the Hitman list anyway, so there was no point in having each target on a separate page.

    As with the Hitman poll, this has nothing to do with "completeness". All information is kept either way. Putting a small amount of information in a stub article is no more complete than putting the information as a section in a larger article. Having the information as part of a larger article improves the quality of the larger article.

    This poll is to decide whether minor characters who only appear in one mission should have their own article.
    The best example of this is the Ramon article, Ramon is a character who has a brief appearance in the mission Three Kings, and is never mentioned in any other mission or cutscene.
    Ramon is only linked from the Three Kings mission article, so there is no reason for him to have his own dedicated article.
    If it is decided that minor Mission characters should be merged, then Ramon article would be merged with the Three Kings mission article, and the page would redirect to that article.
    There will be no information deleted from this wiki, and his name will still be linkable and searchable.

    There are again 3 options in this poll:

    • A. Major Characters get a dedicated article only if their character page has incoming links from multiple pages, which means they appear in multiple missions/activities
    No information would be deleted, their information will be included on larger articles.
    This would result in the merging of several minor character pages, such as Ramon.
    • B. Minor Characters get a dedicated article if they appear in one mission, but not if they only appear in the activity/mission cutscene.
    No information would be deleted, their information will be included on larger articles.
    This would result in no real change occurring, as this is the current policy.
    • C. Minor Characters get a dedicated article if they appear only once in a cutscene, resulting in dozens of stub articles containing very little information, and few incoming links.
    This would result in the creating of stub articles about minor characters would are only mentioned once, and are not linked from multiple pages, and increasing the number of articles containing very little information.

    Please see Top 10 list:Minor Characters to take the poll.

    For more history about this, or to discuss the pros and cons and post your opinion, See Talk:Minor_characters

    Results January 5th, 2012.

    • B - 40
    • C - 14
    • A - 6

    Option B is far enough in the lead after just over a month to call this.

    The result confirms my opinion that all mission characters and locations get dedicated articles, but not if they only appear in a cutscene.

    Thanks everyone for voting.

    452, 2011-11-27T09:25:26Z (last edited: 452, 2013-05-01T10:57:59Z)

    Option A, less clutter.
    IJordon, 2011-11-27T13:06:58Z
    Please see Top 10 list:Minor Characters to take the poll.
    If you wish to discuss the pros and cons and post your opinion, see: Talk:Minor_characters
    452, 2011-11-27T13:16:44Z
    It'll be easier to oversee less articles with more detail. This should keep content quality higher by keeping maintenance manageable. After all, Saints Row isn't a largely lore-driven game, so including all kinds of articles for minor characters is really just superfluous and makes the wiki less of a information base and more of a hobby for people who like to type a lot.
    Incrognito, 2012-01-05T17:17:33Z
    After the first confused comment to this post, I locked comments to prevent it from happening again. Yesterday, when editing in the results, I unlocked comments. In light of another confused comment, I'm wondering how many people tried to leave a comment over the last month, couldn't, and didn't find the link to the actual poll.
    452, 2012-01-05T19:41:57Z
  • Hitman Targets Poll

    I'm not sure how to handle the Hitman Targets, so I've created a poll to find out what everyone else thinks.
    Right now, something has to change, and there's 3 different ways it could be done. They all have their pros and cons. One extreme is having a single very long article, the other extreme is having a bunch of really short articles.

    See Top 10 list:Hitman Targets to take the poll.

    As of the 5th of October, option A, the one page solution, has won the poll, and the draft has replaced the Hitman and Hitman Targets articles, the individual pages will be deleted soon.

    We currently have:

    • The Hitman article, which does not currently list the targets
    • The Hitman Targets article, which is just a list of targets
    • The Hitman/Draft test page, which combines Hitman and Hitman Targets
    • 28 Hitman Target pages, one for each Hitman Target in Saints Row 2

    The options are:

    452, 2011-08-27T00:10:11Z (last edited: 452, 2013-01-30T03:51:20Z)

    To be honest, individual pages for targets would be a lot of work, but it'd increase the number of pages, and people tend to celebrate of that.
    Muthaphukkin Jake, 2011-09-13T03:24:55Z
    its reallly easy just do the one at the prison first
    Soufboi21, 2011-09-15T15:35:51Z
    What are you talking about?
    452, 2011-09-16T00:01:50Z
    he's thinking you are talking about the in game stuff, soufboi hes talking about how to organize the wiki
    Ccat61100, 2011-10-02T14:19:58Z
    Maybe merge the Hitman and Hitman Targets pages, then do 1 page per list of targets, so people can complete them list by list easier., 2011-09-25T01:59:54Z
    One page would be fine, 2011-10-06T03:12:32Z
  • Saints Row Wiki Chat

    I mentioned in a previous News post that Chat had been enabled, but I didn't go into many details.

    • Click here to join the Chat
    • By default, there are no audio notifications when someone joins, so if someone is idling in there while they're busy editing the wiki, they're not going to see you join immediately. So if there is someone else there, and you say "hi", please don't leave a minute later because you didn't get a response.
      • To enable audio notifications, edit: look at the options panel.
    • There have been a lot of people popping in and out regularly, but since they leave immediately, there aren't many people there at once. If everyone who popped in and out just stayed for a while, there would soon be a group of people.
      • Leaving because the chat is empty is stupid, because leaving causes the chat to be empty.
    • If someone is not there, they cannot see your messages. There is no chat log recorded, not even an admin can see what happens in the chat unless they are actually there at the time.
    • Some people come in, ask a question about something in Saints Row, then leave before they get a response. If you have a question about something in the game, it is still best to use the forum, or a talk page, that way other people can see the question and everyone has a chance to answer, and the information you're looking for can be added to an article.
    • The chat is just for casual chat, and is not a place to contact admins about official matters, if you have a problem with another user or another user's edit, leave a talk page message on an article, with that user, or with an admin.
    • And finally, the same rules apply to the chat as the rest of the wiki: No personal attacks, no racism, etc.

    452, 2011-08-22T23:10:58Z (last edited: 452, 2014-08-11T23:14:46Z)

    Today we've hit a new record for 4 people in the chat at once, with 9 different people over the course of the day.
    452, 2011-08-23T22:23:13Z
    Oh, so I did post the record someplace.
    I think we've hit 6 people since then.
    452, 2013-07-29T21:52:47Z
    Well, we're definitely at 6 people right now.
    452, 2013-08-05T19:40:46Z
    7 people.
    452, 2013-08-05T22:27:34Z
    8 people.
    452, 2013-08-05T22:28:39Z
    We hit 9 a few days ago. Oops. I expect tomorrow we'll probably pass 20.
    452, 2013-08-19T12:49:54Z
    Well, I was wrong. 300,000 people looking at the wiki every day, and still less than 10 people.
    But today, we passed 400,000 views, AND there are 10 people in the chat at the same time.
    452, 2013-08-27T18:48:50Z
    Make that 11.
    452, 2013-08-27T19:49:08Z
    i love saints row
    Finchd, 2012-04-27T14:54:08Z
  • User Groups 2011

    For updated information, see Forum:User Groups 2013

    I have overhauled the Saints Row Wiki:User Groups page.
    Anyone who was previously listed on that page as being in a particular usergroup has been removed and must re-add themself.

    I have defined 11 areas of focus, and luckily there are 11 different enemy gangs in the Saints Row series, so each usergroup can have the name of a Gang.

    Membership in a usergroup is not compulsory, but if you have an interest in a particular part of the Saints Row series, or in improving certain sections of this wiki, usergroups will help organise and communicate with people with similar interests.

    The reason for this overhaul is that there has been no organisation or purpose for the usergroups since it was created, and no-one really knew what the page was for, so I have looked at how usergroups work on other wikia's, in particular the Rainbox Six Wiki's Usergroup page, and followed their lead.

    The 11 areas of focus are:

    • Geography Group (Districts, Neighborhoods, Buildings, Locations)
    • Arms Army (Weapons)
    • Transport Team (Vehicles)
    • Character Crew (Characters, Gangs)
    • Activity Arrangers (Activities)
    • Missionaries (Missions)
    • Multiplayer Masters (Multiplayer, Co-op and Deathmatch)
    • Secret Society (Easter Eggs, Unlockables, Achievements, Cheats)
    • Gameplay Gurus (Customization, Controls, User Interface)
    • Cleanup Crew (Watching pages requiring cleanup)
    • Picture Patrol (Taking Screenshots, articles without images, adding unused images)

    These are just the names I have chosen for the areas of focus, and have not been assigned to any Gang names yet.

    See Saints Row Wiki:User Groups for more info, and to add yourself to a usergroup.

    452, 2011-08-12T03:25:41Z (last edited: 452, 2015-03-07T03:50:49Z)

    18 months ago. I'm hoping for better results this time.
    452, 2013-04-02T22:44:00Z
  • Updates 2011-07

    There have been several updates recently.

    Random Articles[]

    I have added a new section to the main page, a list of random articles.
    Area: Southern Cross
    Building: Hotel Penthouse
    Weapon: Dildo Bat
    Vehicle: Raycaster
    Gang: Masako
    Character: Velociraptor Ned
    Mission: Boiling Point
    Activity: Chop Shop

    Gallery categories[]

    Today I have enabled gallery view of categories, which also allows you to sort articles in the category by Alphabetical, Recently Edited, or Most Visited
    If you would prefer to view the list of categories, you can do so by clicking the "Category List view" icon, to the right of the sorting drop-down box.
    The image gallery works best for categories where most articles have images, such as Category:Weapons in Saints Row. There is currently a bug where viewing Template categories does not show anything in gallery view, but you can still switch to list view.


    And I have also enabled chat, which can be accessed at Special:Chat. I'll be idling in there, feel free to drop in.

    Image request template[]

    I have recently created a {{image}} template, which can be used to request that an image be added to an article, see the template documentation page for usage details.
    If you would like to help add requested image, you can look at the Image requests category.

    Quote template[]

    There is also a new {{Quote}} template, which can be used to put a quote at the top of a character page.

    Ref template[]

    Today I have added a new {{ref}} template, which is another way of adding citations to an article.
    Normally, you would add a reference like this: <ref name="refname">reference</ref>
    but you can now do it this way instead: {{ref|refname|reference}}.
    See the template documentation page for more usage details.

    As requested previously, please include references where ever possible, whether it is for things which happened in a particular mission in the game, or for things that are announced on websites.
    Including sources helps verify that what you have added is true, and helps reduce vandalism.

    New page layout[]

    To help new users, I have updated the default page layout with a rough outline.

    452, 2011-07-09T04:54:35Z (last edited: 452, 2016-10-03T15:42:01Z)

    Ooh, a ref template? I can see myself using this a lot.
    Moozipan Cheese, 2011-07-09T14:30:16Z
  • Wishlist

    Since the Saints Row: The Third Wishlist has been so popular, I have made a wishlist page for this wiki: Saints Row Wiki:To-do list

    Remember, Anyone can edit!, but this wishlist makes it easier for those who don't have time.

    While there have been 45 active editors during the last 30 days, there have also been over 200 registered visitors to this wiki during the same period, and an unknown number of anonymous users.

    I realise that many people do not have time to edit this wiki, so the new wishlist page makes it easy for people to contribute by requesting additions.
    There are many users whose only contributions are fixing typos, and I just wanted to say a big thank you to these people, because every little bit helps.

    If you have an idea to improve this wiki, but don't know how to do it yourself, or don't have time, you can still help improve this wiki by telling everyone about your idea.

    Or if there's some particular information that you are looking for, chances are that someone else will know the answer and be able to add it for you.

    If you do have time, but don't know where to start helping, the To-do list will make a great starting point, either by helping other users, or adding their suggestions to the wiki.

    As always, you can also use each article's Talk page for discussing improvements to each article.

    452, 2011-05-23 01:00:34

  • Category reorganisation

    I have reorganised all the categories.

    The best way to describe what I did is to simply show you:

    Most categories are in both trees, this makes it easy to find information about a certain game, or to browse the different types of gameplay. Some things that are not specific to any game are not included in the Games tree.

    edit 2012: another way of understanding the categories is to look at the Index, which essentially displays the "Gameplay" category, but with duplicates removed.

    This is phase 1 of the cleanup.

    1) Recategorise categories

    I've put each category into relevant categories, including rearranging the tree to make more sense, and to limit the number of items in each category.
    For instance, previously the Los Carnales category was in the Saints Row category, the Gangs category, and the Characters category. Now, it is only in the Gangs in Saints Row category.
    The Gangs in Saints Row category is in the Saints Row category, the Gangs category.
    This is difficult to visualise, but can be seen by viewing the category tree links above.

    2) Examine categories and recategorise pages

    This mostly entails removing pages from incorrect categories.
    With the same example, the Los Carnales page was also in multiple redundant categories. It is now in the Los Carnales and Gangs in Saints Row categories.
    This is still slightly redundant, but is necessary as a user would expect to find the page about the gang in the gangs category, as well as the page about Los Carnales in the Los Carnales category.
    Update: This is now being changed. A link to an article of the same name as the category is now being added to the description of each category.
    Gangs in Saints Row will contain the Los Carnales category, and the Los Carnales article. The Los Carnales category will link to the Los Carnales article instead of having it in the article list. -452 22:55, August 24, 2011 (UTC)
    I have already fixed many pages, in particular the Gangs, and many Weapons and Vehicles pages, but there are many more to do.
    Almost all vehicles were in the Vehicles category, and must be moved to the appropriate Vehicles in Saints Row categories. (This is now complete)

    3) Examine all pages and place it correct categories

    While the focus of phase 2 is removing pages from the wrong catgories, the focus of phase 3 is ensuring every page is in the correct categories.
    After examining all categories, it is also important to go through each page and ensure that it wasn't left behind, or a category wasn't forgotten.
    This will either be the easiest part, or the hardest part, depending on how well part 2 is done ;)

    Unfortunately, as I've been concentrating on reorganising things, I haven't been doing as much creation or improvement.
    I would really like to focus on making maps, and adding them to all neighborhood pages, but there is just so much else do do.

    4) Add descriptions to all category pages

    Phase 4 is an afterthought, but all categories should have a description, and links to appropriate articles.

    452, 2011-05-06T00:17:15Z (last edited: 452, 2013-05-01T10:53:32Z)

    Phase 2 completed. I believe I have now removed all redundant categories.
    It look longer than anticipated, as I've been busy with real life stuff recently.
    452, 2011-06-27T01:27:09Z
    Btw, Phase 3 was completed some time ago, and a useful list is available on Portal talk:Index
    Phase 4 is mostly complete, but I haven't actually ensured it's fully complete.
    I might do that today.
    452, 2013-06-02T16:01:20Z (last edited: 452, 2013-06-03T12:47:40Z)
  • Audio files

    What quotes do you want added to this wiki? SR2 911 Message

    I've recently added audio files to the Phone Numbers page, as well as the Police Headquarters, and will be uploading audio files for the quotes section of every article.

    If you'd like to have a particular quote added, add the quote to an article, or if you can't remember the entire quote, you can leave a message on the article's talk page describing it, and I'll try to find it.

    Always use the {{Quote}} template to add quotes, so the quotes will automatically be listed on Saints Row Wiki:Quotes, and I'll be able to see which quotes need audio added.

    I also wanted to explain the new template for audio files.
    This is the code used for embedding the audio file at the top of this article:

    {{audio|answering machine SR2_VOC_SP_04768.ogg|SR2 911 Message}}

    Details about the template can be found here: {{Audio}}
    Right now, there are not many options, but I will continue working on the template, and any help would be appreciated.

    We also have a new vehicle infobox template, thanks to Keroro1keroro1
    You can read about it here: Template:vehicle
    We're gradually adding it to articles, and again, any help is appreciated.
    If you would like to help, all the vehicle statistics are available on the Mechanic page.
    I've uploaded all of the vehicle logo images yesterday, which can also be added to each vehicle's infobox. (You can use Special:NewFiles to browse the recently uploaded images.)

    In other recent changes, there have been some improvements to the main page, and all the links in the nav-bar menu at the top of the page work again, hopefully you will find them useful.

    I have also created a Gallery of images I have uploaded, for easy browsing

    This wiki is very much a work in progress, so if there are any improvements you can suggest to any articles, or just comment on the articles, feel free to leave a message on any article talk page, or dive right in and add things to articles yourself. :)

    452, 2011-05-04T16:24:00Z (last edited: 452, 2016-05-01T14:32:16Z)

    could you please post the quotes of all the voices? If not at least female voice one from Saints Row: The Third? Thanks and sorry for bothering you., 2012-08-03T16:34:35Z
    All the quotes? That's a lot of quotes!
    I've been thinking about dedicated some time to doing what i said i would do in this post: adding audio for every quote.
    Since this article, we've added a {{quote}} template, and all quotes using that template are listed on Saints Row Wiki:Quotes. I'll be using that page to see which quotes need to be added, so many sure you use the quote template to add the quotes, and I'll get to them eventually.
    Feel free to leave a message any time. :)
    452, 2012-08-03T23:01:05Z
    IDK if you're still doing this, but are you able to collect the quotes from the civilians? Any of the games will do, and thanks for reading this., 2014-08-19T15:00:51Z
    I have all of the audio files, including civilian audio files.
    I have only partially sorted them, because it is a very time-intensive process.
    452, 2014-08-19T15:25:37Z (last edited: 452, 2014-08-19T15:26:24Z)
    If you'd like to have a particular quote added, add the quote to an article, or if you can't remember the entire quote, you can leave a message on the article's talk page describing it, and I'll try to find it.
    Ah, I was just about to post a new blog post saying the same thing - I'm glad I checked To-do/Audio first. (The system works!)
    As I've mentioned, while I have all the audio, I can't just upload all the audio. If there's a specific quote you think needs audio uploaded, this blog post is still the right place to make the request.
    Audio for Saints Row: The Third onwards is much easier to find, thanks to the lists I've added to To-do/Quote. But I was still able to find a bunch of specific audio for Saints Row and Saints Row 2 without too much difficulty.
    The really hard audio to locate is still the civilian audio, in all games, because I basically need to listen to thousands of audio files in order to find anything.
    452, 2015-02-12T16:25:32Z
  • Sourcing

    See Help:Refs for up to date information about adding references

    Allright, people. I'm going to introduce sourcing to the wiki. Sources, or references, show where the information on a certain article comes from, be it games or websites. I want this applied to every article, as I have seen information on a few articles and I'm not too sure about the reliability of these. To add sources to an article, do the following:


    <ref>''[[Saints Row 2]]''</ref>
    <ref name="Saints Row 2">''[[Saints Row 2]]''</ref>*

    will show up as this:


    Put this behind a sentence or an entire chapter of text.

    • = When you use this method, you can simply use <ref name="Saints Row 2" /> if you need to source to Saints Row 2 again.

    Add the following code at the very bottom, to make the references show up there:


    This will appear like this:


    When it's unknown where the information comes from, add the following template:




    Read this through carefully. I'm pretty sure there will be questions about this, as I really have no idea how to explain things to people (which is a fact, I give very vague explanations). Ask them below, and I'll do my best to answer.

    Master Sima Yi - 2011-03-15 17:11:14

  • Character Creation Spotlight

    Yesterday my fellow admin AndyP96 came up with the idea to create a contest for best and most original playable character that the community could create. The contest is up now and you guys, the community, can now send in your creations to either me or AndyP96. The best one will be featured on the main page for one week!

    Read the following article to find out about the rules:

    Enjoy, people!

    Master Sima Yi, 2010-08-17T10:31:33Z (last edited: 452, 2012-04-29T01:05:08Z)

    Cool! I'll grab my camra!, 2010-08-17T21:29:40Z
    Alright, man, but can you first register yourself? That way we can identify you and give credit to you.
    Master Sima Yi, 2010-08-17T21:35:02Z
    hey does it have to be a look alike ive posted a pic but its my own creation
    Kieranl, 2010-10-14T22:00:44Z
    Well, it has to be either a look-a-like or a really spunky character.
    Master Sima Yi, 2010-10-15T04:54:18Z
  • New staff

    Seeing as the current line of staff didn't work out too well, I am making a complete overhaul to it. I myself have been promoted to bureaucrat and I have already promoted AndyP96 to admin. Though I'm not going to leave it with that. I am planning to promote one more contributor to admin and about five more to modistrator (rollback rights). Below follows a list of requirements to be promoted.


    • 400 edits.
    • Proven himself to be a good community member.
    • Shown to be an active member.
    • Responds to vandalism quickly and efficiently.


    • 100 edits.
    • Shown to be an active member.
    • Responds to vandalism quickly.

    Master Sima Yi, 2010-08-16T16:15:37Z (last edited: 452, 2012-04-29T01:04:11Z)

    They are fair requirements. Like you said, its better to have more people with Saints Row 3 coming soon.
    Spedster777, 2010-08-16T20:02:29Z
    Yeah, and the whole staff system was f*cked up anyways. There were 2 inactive admins, including me. It's time it's to be cleared up.
    Anyways, guys, if you'd like to be a member of the staff and you've met these requirements, just leave a message on my talk page.
    Master Sima Yi, 2010-08-16T20:05:23Z
    Well, the first time I visited this website, I thought you were the owner of the site, because you have more than 2000 edits, so really nobody could have really been a bearucrat other than you., 2010-08-16T20:54:56Z
    Haha. :P Aei-Kae-Aei was here before me though. He was an admin, but he's inactive now. In my opinion, he should've been bureaucrat, but seeing as he's inactive...
    Master Sima Yi, 2010-08-16T20:58:27Z (last edited: Master Sima Yi, 2010-08-16T20:58:52Z)
    Well, at least this wiki can chose staff well. Alot of wikis have unstable, poorly chosen Admins. Like Halofanon has out of control.
    Spedster777, 2010-08-16T21:03:54Z
    Yeah, it's necessary to have some good staff members. Things were kind of out of control here as well. Lots of vandalising chicken-shit unregistered contributors. They could simply have their way as I was the only staff member. Now I have you (Spedster) and Andy to help me out. :P And of course all of the other serious editors!
    Master Sima Yi, 2010-08-16T21:09:56Z
    Too bad most of my edits I havn't been loged in for or I could be a mod. I thing my account has 6 edits though. oh well., 2010-08-17T00:30:27Z
    Well its good to know that rules are being enforced here.
    Spedster777, 2010-08-17T04:12:58Z
    Well its good to know that rules are being enforced here.
    Spedster777, 2010-08-17T04:12:59Z
    Well its good to know that rules are being enforced here. I think people should make bereaucrat at like 1500.
    Spedster777, 2010-08-17T04:14:06Z
    Well its good to know that rules are being enforced here. I think people should make bereaucrat at like 1500.
    Spedster777, 2010-08-17T04:14:06Z
    Glad to see that you guys are shaping up. It's very cool.
    Wagnike2, 2010-08-17T18:35:14Z
    Nice set up for the promotions, honestly. I'd love to apply as a mod, but seeing as I fit all the requirements save the minimum amount of edits (I only have 35-ish) I can't.
    SanDemonMax, 2010-08-19T07:25:12Z
    Well, you don't need to necessarily have 100 edits. If you have about 70 or 80 I'll also be fine with it. And there's still a lot to do here, so it shouldn't be a problem to get those edits.
    Master Sima Yi, 2010-08-19T08:08:27Z
    So I really only need like 380 edits and still get promoted?
    Spedster777, 2010-08-22T20:30:08Z

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